MLD frameless packs.....am I light enough...

[saltysack]

After my previous post looking at Zpacks vs HMG 40l packs now has me considering MLD packs i.e. Prophet....never used a frameless pack before. My base weight is 11-12....I see 25lbs is max so should be under that.......approx $100 less and 10oz+ lighter even in dyneema than others in cuben.....thoughts? I'm 5'11" 210lbs athletic stocky build. How well does pack transfer weight to waist as I have a fairly large neck and traps.


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[burger]

It depends on how much food, water, stove fuel, etc. You'll be carrying. If you're doing shorter trips, won't be carrying much water, etc., 10 or 11 lbs. is a fine baseweight for a frameless pack, since you'll rarely be going much over 20 lbs. If you're doing longer trips, big water carries, etc., you might be pushing your pack weight over 25 or 30 lbs. That's where your frameless pack starts to collapse, putting weight on your shoulders.

My go-to pack is a ULA CDT (it's frameless), and my base weight is probably 10ish (haven't checked in a while). I've done up to 4 day trips in the CDT while not carrying much water. And I've done shorter trips carrying 5-6 L. But if I had to carry 4+ days of food and do some long waterless stretches, I'd probably want to take something with a bit more support.

[saltysack]

It depends on how much food, water, stove fuel, etc. You'll be carrying. If you're doing shorter trips, won't be carrying much water, etc., 10 or 11 lbs. is a fine baseweight for a frameless pack, since you'll rarely be going much over 20 lbs. If you're doing longer trips, big water carries, etc., you might be pushing your pack weight over 25 or 30 lbs. That's where your frameless pack starts to collapse, putting weight on your shoulders.

My go-to pack is a ULA CDT (it's frameless), and my base weight is probably 10ish (haven't checked in a while). I've done up to 4 day trips in the CDT while not carrying much water. And I've done shorter trips carrying 5-6 L. But if I had to carry 4+ days of food and do some long waterless stretches, I'd probably want to take something with a bit more support.

Living in the southeast most of my hikes are on the southern AT, FHT etc but do a yearly trip out west. Seldom longer than 3-4 day food carry though.


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[Malto]

I have the baby brother (Burn) and have already worn out one over the past five years. My base is about 8 lbs which is a bit lighter but I also had eight days of food in my pack recently in Wyoming and it handled well. In your case, you have a higher base weight but likely a light food carry. The only thing I would watch is volume. Make sure you have enough volume to fill out the pack. If you do then it turns into a very solid brick that is every bit as stiff as a frame. I wouldn't hesitate going this route.

[Just Bill]

I have the baby brother (Burn) and have already worn out one over the past five years. My base is about 8 lbs which is a bit lighter but I also had eight days of food in my pack recently in Wyoming and it handled well. In your case, you have a higher base weight but likely a light food carry. The only thing I would watch is volume. Make sure you have enough volume to fill out the pack. If you do then it turns into a very solid brick that is every bit as stiff as a frame. I wouldn't hesitate going this route.

I'd agree with that strongly... while a minor risk to the pad- using an inflatable as "filler" works pretty well as you eat through your food or need a bit more volume to fill things out.

The BPL guys call it "torso collapse" if you've ever seen the term mentioned... but basically that's what/why nothing transfers off your shoulders. (or why a poorly made internal frame pack can sag on you) Without a frame you're just wearing a daypack with a fanny pack and they don't work together at all. A full pack is a version of a frame too.

Even blowing up ziplock bags or a drysack works okay; but simply folding your air pad and slipping it in with the valve up so you can inflate is the easy route IMO. If you put it on the outside it won't be bouncing on your back (hard on the pad) and will keep the load compressed and close to your body. You can cut out the compression system components then as well if you really want to shave an extra ounce or two.

A full pack also makes all the pockets easier to use as well. Don't go too nuts on blowing it up... I've never had any real pad issue but like any UL trick go gently.

[saltysack]

Even with the internal frame packs I've used they all seem to carry better when pack is filled out more...the reason I prefer a trash compactor bag vs several stuff sacks for keeping gear dry....quilt, down jacket and sleep base layers as let's entire pack fill out. My progression was from a circuit (65l) to a 2015 gorilla (40l) and now the new gorilla which is to large even with all my winter load Inc a 20 and 45* quilt. For non winter it would be way to large. Im thinking I could possibly make the burn work but not sure if my winter(SE) load would fit.....


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[swisscross]

I too looked long and hard at the Prophet but had a hard time pulling the trigger due to the price and the uncertainty of carrying well. Never used a frameless pack.

I got lucky picking up a ULA CDT here on WB for a great price. Sized between the Burn and the Prophet I thought it would be a good compromise and a chance to see if I really liked the idea of frameless. Not as light as the MLD products but not by much.

I am glad I did. Love this little pack.
My big 4 are about 5.75 lbs (similar gear as you...large xlite, and solong). Base weight varies due to temp and weather but I no issues with comfort around 18 or under.

If I were to get the Prophet in the future I would get the suspension upgrade.

I weighed my 13yo daughters school bag the other day and it was 17 lbs.
If she can carry that, I can too.

[Sandy of PA]

If you have a Gorilla, just yank out the frame and load it up. Your body will tell you pretty quick if going frameless will work for you.

[saltysack]

If you have a Gorilla, just yank out the frame and load it up. Your body will tell you pretty quick if going frameless will work for you.

Good point...it will be tough to fill this thing but I'll load out and go for a I'll walk...


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[changed]

Good point...it will be tough to fill this thing but I'll load out and go for a I'll walk...

Is the new Gorilla you have a medium? I'd take it off your hands, since I'm looking for something lighter than my Exos but not as expensive as the Arc Blast for a PCT thru. PM me if so!

[MuddyWaters]

I dont care for frameless most of time.

1. Packing using pad for structure is really a drag. I got tired of hassle. Couldnt stand round burrito style. pad folded flat against back is best imo, but PU coated fabric doesnt slide against evazote, great to keep height from collapsing, bad for wrangling evazote into position in pack while holding it open with one hand.

2. I like my small ccf outside to sit on in day, and only use xlite short, which I want protected well in pack

3. Few are lighter than my 16.7 oz arc blast. None carry anywhere close to as well as it. I would only carry frameless today if 10 oz pack, and 5 lb base for a fast and light trip. even then only save 7oz . Heck, i dont even like a framed pack over 20 lb.

Can remove frame from my arc and its 13.7 oz frameless. Seriously not. Worth it..

[Dogwood]

What volume carrier are you currently using?

Yup, with frameless packs of the 45-50 L volume it's not just wt but volume of the load or how the main compartment is filled or how it'd designed to allow for load wt transfer when it's not full when the load still demands wt transfer to the hips. I would expect with packs in this volume with typical specked loads particularly when kit and total load wt is being heavily factored into the individual's backpacking philosophy the pack is generally going to be rather full. Under this likelihood of use it's better to think of frameless packs as a pack you will provide the frame for. In short, you're not going frameless with this volume pack.

Using a ULA CDT as my goto pack for the past 8 yrs, I could have been using a 35-40 L pack, like the Burn, for 50+% of my hikes 5 yrs ago as the CDT has simply been overly voluminous. It has nothing to do with the total load wt or even volume and hasn't been for yrs as my base has been sub 6 lbs for 80% of my hikes for well over 5 yrs and consumable wt and volume is among the best I've witnessed in the LD community. I've gotten away with it though because I've always used a Thermarest Neo Air XLite Shortie or Woman's version with the CDT ever adjusting for ever decreasing kit volume by simply increasing the inflation volume of the pad and reducing main compartment volume by tightening down side compression straps. Some UL pack designers, like Ron in the Prophet, or what I used before the ULA CDT, the GoLite 50L Jam 2, incorporate bottom reduction compression straps. Straps, compression bungee, etc on a UL pack aren't there for show or just for attaching things. These features can be used to decrease the main compartment volume to make it easier to transfer the load to hips by "stiffening" it up when the pack's max volume isn't near being utilized.

So, to answer "how well does pack transfer weight to waist as I have a fairly large neck and traps?" or "I too looked long and hard at the Prophet but had a hard time pulling the trigger due to the price and the uncertainty of carrying well. Never used a frameless pack." it depends in large part how well the user creates a virtual frame when the design specks are maxed/near max and how well the user and/or the pack adjust as the load and volume decrease. There is more to think about using a frameless pack similarly to using a bivy, smaller area tarp, etc. but it's not like there's some secret knowledge to learn. For someone like you I'd say go out and try a frameless pack staying within the design specks. Play with it. Your kit wt is low enough but again that's not all there is to using a frameless pack with comfort or efficiency. Don't be quick to harshly judge the gear. This is what folks wanting to go lighter sometimes do - integrate, observe, consider, think, adapt, and evolve knowing the gear aspect is only one tenet of the UL approach.

If you don't like the full time frameless rucksack design or aren't ready for it there are UL packs that offer removable stays, frame sheet, etc to give you options in transferring wt and reducing gear(backpack) wt.

[saltysack]

What volume carrier are you currently using?

Yup, with frameless packs of the 45-50 L volume it's not just wt but volume of the load or how the main compartment is filled or how it'd designed to allow for load wt transfer when it's not full when the load still demands wt transfer to the hips. I would expect with packs in this volume with typical specked loads particularly when kit and total load wt is being heavily factored into the individual's backpacking philosophy the pack is generally going to be rather full. Under this likelihood of use it's better to think of frameless packs as a pack you will provide the frame for. In short, you're not going frameless with this volume pack.

Using a ULA CDT as my goto pack for the past 8 yrs, I could have been using a 35-40 L pack, like the Burn, for 50+% of my hikes 5 yrs ago as the CDT has simply been overly voluminous. It has nothing to do with the total load wt or even volume and hasn't been for yrs as my base has been sub 6 lbs for 80% of my hikes for well over 5 yrs and consumable wt and volume is among the best I've witnessed in the LD community. I've gotten away with it though because I've always used a Thermarest Neo Air XLite Shortie or Woman's version with the CDT ever adjusting for ever decreasing kit volume by simply increasing the inflation volume of the pad and reducing main compartment volume by tightening down side compression straps. Some UL pack designers, like Ron in the Prophet, or what I used before the ULA CDT, the GoLite 50L Jam 2, incorporate bottom reduction compression straps. Straps, compression bungee, etc on a UL pack aren't there for show or just for attaching things. These features can be used to decrease the main compartment volume to make it easier to transfer the load to hips by "stiffening" it up when the pack's max volume isn't near being utilized.

So, to answer "how well does pack transfer weight to waist as I have a fairly large neck and traps?" or "I too looked long and hard at the Prophet but had a hard time pulling the trigger due to the price and the uncertainty of carrying well. Never used a frameless pack." it depends in large part how well the user creates a virtual frame when the design specks are maxed/near max and how well the user and/or the pack adjust as the load and volume decrease. There is more to think about using a frameless pack similarly to using a bivy, smaller area tarp, etc. but it's not like there's some secret knowledge to learn. For someone like you I'd say go out and try a frameless pack staying within the design specks. Play with it. Your kit wt is low enough but again that's not all there is to using a frameless pack with comfort or efficiency. Don't be quick to harshly judge the gear. This is what folks wanting to go lighter sometimes do - integrate, observe, consider, think, adapt, and evolve knowing the gear aspect is only one tenet of the UL approach.

If you don't like the full time frameless rucksack design or aren't ready for it there are UL packs that offer removable stays, frame sheet, etc to give you options in transferring wt and reducing gear(backpack) wt.

Great points...just spoke with Ron. I'm really in between the burn and prophet so obviously easier to synch down than expand into collar as needs to roll closed...was thinking about the Burn but adding the lid for lil more space but not sure...


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[saltysack]

Thx guys for all useful info...in thinking the Burn might fit better as the Prophet is actually larger than the gorilla in the pix...see pix. All my gear is loaded Inc food but no pot as will go in outside pocket. I have around 6" off space in the gorilla before I hit the extension collar...thoughts?


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[saltysack]

Even with both quilts for a 3-4 day winter hike in an inch or two below...main pack body volume.....
Gorilla 1760ci
Burn 1500ci
Could add lid to burn to gain 200ci for 2oz...


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[saltysack]

With both quilts


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[Dogwood]

From my perspective opting for frameless packs in the 35 L or so volume as your goto pack demands short trips, frequent resupplying, doing higher MPD avgs, and/or having many(all?) of the aspects of UL approaches dialed in.

When I use the Burn I don't ever have more than a 22 lb TOTAL load using a well integrated advanced pared down almost minimalist kit. I have been able to LD hike(PCT, 800 mile late spring/early summer season AT, Foothills Tr, Bartram TR thrus, etc) using the Burn with a max of 5 days low volume food and conscientious logistical low water hauls. Personally, I don't like and I don't regular use/max out the Burn's extended collar. I cut 2" off mine so I wouldn't. Loading frameless packs high above their virtual frame unbalances the pack. I occasionally had the same experiences with maxed out volume using the extended cowling of the ULA CDT. So, the real volume of the main compartment may be a tiny bit less for reg all day comfortable use. I rectify the volume loss from the shortened collar by having a 1.5 " higher shovel pocket and optional hip belt/webbing belt MLD pockets.

https://ulgearblog.com/2016/01/30/20...-designs-burn/

[saltysack]

From my perspective opting for frameless packs in the 35 L or so volume as your goto pack demands short trips, frequent resupplying, doing higher MPD avgs, and/or having many(all?) of the aspects of UL approaches dialed in.

When I use the Burn I don't ever have more than a 22 lb TOTAL load using a well integrated advanced pared down almost minimalist kit. I have been able to LD hike(PCT, 800 mile late spring/early summer season AT, Foothills Tr, Bartram TR thrus, etc) using the Burn with a max of 5 days low volume food and conscientious logistical low water hauls. Personally, I don't like and I don't regular use/max out the Burn's extended collar. I cut 2" off mine so I wouldn't. Loading frameless packs high above their virtual frame unbalances the pack. I occasionally had the same experiences with maxed out volume using the extended cowling of the ULA CDT. So, the real volume of the main compartment may be a tiny bit less for reg all day comfortable use. I rectify the volume loss from the shortened collar by having a 1.5 " higher shovel pocket and optional hip belt/webbing belt MLD pockets.

https://ulgearblog.com/2016/01/30/20...-designs-burn/

I read that article yesterday....so you thinking should stick with prophet? I'm just concerned with filling it up.....


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[Dogwood]

I can barely figure out what's good for me. And, that's always evolving subject to change.

What pack you go with depends on you, your hikes, your pack line up, list of priorities, coming to some acceptable balance, etc. Some questions you should ask and answer yourself is this pack purchase part of a pack line up I desire with different packs used for different hikes, is this pack purchase intended to be my goto pack,...

[saltysack]

I can barely figure out what's good for me. And, that's always evolving subject to change.

What pack you go with depends on you, your hikes, your pack line up, list of priorities, coming to some acceptable balance, etc. Some questions you should ask and answer yourself is this pack purchase part of a pack line up I desire with different packs used for different hikes, is this pack purchase intended to be my goto pack,...

I'm like you always evolving but my wife is on my arse to get rid of gear not being used just as I am on her about not needing more damn cloths!!! This will be my go to pack for now.......honestly besides one two week trip out west once per year I'm mostly out 3-4 days i.e. AT or FHT etc.....


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