Better Options For My Loadout?

[Kc Fiedler]

Hey all, just looking to see if people are aware of better / cheaper / lighter gear choices for some of my summerlist.

I don't always buy the absolute lightest - sometimes I like to save money where saving an ounce is silly expensive (this is usually just a guy feeling opinion of whether or not the weight savings is worth the money).

Here's my summer list and you'll notice that there are prices on only a few of the items. These are the item's I'm currently thinking about purchasing for next year. I'm going back to ground dwelling after a few years of hanging.

I have settled on the UGQ tarp because it's much more affordable and barely heavier than the next best cuben option. However, if anyone knows of a better option at a reasonable price - please let me know.

Anyone have opinions on using the poncho as the ground sheet? I've always been hesitant to lay on my cuben because it's so damn expensive... but I thought maybe I'd start trying to expand my comfort zone next year...

Still debating between the UL tent stakes vs my current mini groundhogs... the weight is barely different and I like the loop of string on my groundhogs for clipping them to my pack so they don't get lost. May just stick with the MSR stakes.

My current main pack is a GG Gorilla modified down to about 19oz but I'd really like to try the Murmur, especially since it's on sale... the 10 oz Murmur is looking awful appealing and I never use all the space in my Gorilla anyways. Any other packs I'm not considering that would beat that price and weight for a similar price? I was considering an Arc Blast for a while but at this point they now weigh more than my current GG Gorilla and cost a **** ton more... so that's a no-go.

This is a gear system I've been using for a while and it works for me but feel free to chat with suggestions and input. If you have some cool tips for lightening my load that you may notice in my gear - feel free to shout them out. I'd love to know if something could be improved.

Just hoping for an open exchange of ideas here. Thanks in advance for chatting.

[Kc Fiedler]

Another thing that would be much appreciated is lighter options for polyester t-shirts... I currently use the MH Wicked Lite shirts just because I've had them forever. I can't help but feel like there's got to be a lighter option out there... Anybody use a great lightweight wicking shirt?

[Huli]

List looks pretty decent!

How long are you looking to backpack in one go?

If you want to ditch the ground cloth and your sleeping pad for a Ridge Rest pad you could save money and weight. I don't ever suggest a poncho for a ground cloth, if you get a hole in it, it becomes only a ground cloth. A piece of plastic sheet from the hardware store will do better.

[Kc Fiedler]

List looks pretty decent!

How long are you looking to backpack in one go?

If you want to ditch the ground cloth and your sleeping pad for a Ridge Rest pad you could save money and weight. I don't ever suggest a poncho for a ground cloth, if you get a hole in it, it becomes only a ground cloth. A piece of plastic sheet from the hardware store will do better.

I like your perspective on the poncho ground cloth. That's kinda where my head's been at. I think you're totally right - I'll probably keep my rain gear off the ground.

I've used this setup on the AT for up to a month at a time before... I can carry enough food for 5-7 days at a go with this setup and my GG Gorilla. Moving to the GG Murmur would reduce my pack size a bit so it might be a maximum of 5 days with that setup. I'll need to get my hands on the pack and do some testing.

I can never sleep well enough on a z-lite or ridge rest, I've tried many times. Maybe I'll give it another shot... I personally think a good night's sleep is more important to me and my personal setup and saving a few ounces. It's one of the only places I'm willing to add weight.

Thanks for your feedback - I'll be thinking it over!

[garlic08]

One step I took to be able to use a smaller pack was going stoveless. It was more an issue of pack volume than weight, but the smaller pack worked very well and then everything else just got a little better. With my hiking style and diet, it worked well for me, but I understand it would not work for everyone.

[Kc Fiedler]

One step I took to be able to use a smaller pack was going stoveless. It was more an issue of pack volume than weight, but the smaller pack worked very well and then everything else just got a little better. With my hiking style and diet, it worked well for me, but I understand it would not work for everyone.

Would you care to share what meal planning and a sample diet look like for you for a stove less trip? Very interested.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Cheyou]

One step I took to be able to use a smaller pack was going stoveless. It was more an issue of pack volume than weight, but the smaller pack worked very well and then everything else just got a little better. With my hiking style and diet, it worked well for me, but I understand it would not work for everyone.

What items are in your no cook kit ? How much space did you save ?

Thom

[pjdiez]

I recently (August 15-September 6) used the ZP groundsheet-poncho over 320 miles of the CO trail, combined with a ZP 7x9 cuben tarp and rain kilt. I don't think punctures are really much of a problem using the poncho as a ground cloth as long as you're reasonably careful picking your sites and removing sharp objects, which you REALLY should be doing anyway with the neoair xlite. The 1oz cuben is very tough and any punctures or tears can be easily repaired with duct tape or cuben patches. I don't think I had any punctures at all during the trip.

The biggest problem I had with the ZP groundsheet-poncho was keeping the zippers functioning properly. The ZP groundsheet-poncho has very small lightweight zippers that are easily gummed up. They're hard enough to keep clean in the field and sliding smoothly without rubbing them into the snow, ice and mud when used as a groundsheet. I had quite a bit of bad weather on the trip and several times I was left struggling with a stuck zipper as rain, snow and sleet started to fall. This eventually led to one the zippers separating at the bottom and requiring a field repair.

Two other problems I had with the ZP groundsheet-poncho:
1. You need to protect your arms in really cold weather. I started out using my windshirt under the poncho, but switched to wearing a rain shell I bought in a town stop. (This sounds redundant, but actually works well when the weather is really crappy.) I'm going to make some sleeves from an old dri duck jacket as an alternative.
2. Forget trying to hitchhike in a ZP groundsheet-poncho and kilt outfit. You basically look like you're wearing garbage bags. No one would stop for me while wearing this outfit. I might as well have been carrying a chain saw.

All that said, the ZP groundsheet-poncho was one of my favorite pieces of gear. It performed really well in everything from relatively warm (~70*) rain to freezing rain, snow and hail. I loved being able to pull my arms in, raise the poncho up high and access my pack, drink, eat lunch, even poop under shelter in the worst weather.

[Dogwood]

You might want to consider factoring in various trip conditions when choosing things like summer tee, tent stakes, etc. For example, the summer tee I'd choose for summer on the AT in the mid Atlantic states, on the PNT, or the dry PCT through Cali and OR would likely all be different. I also like 1/2 zip tees on longer duration summer hikes that offer changing weather patterns. Tent stakes I choose for a coastal beach hike where I'm going to be sheltering on the beach occasionally, hammocking in Hawaii off trail in steep wet jungle like terrain, tenting in winter on snowpack, possibly above treelike tenting on gravely shallow soils, etc is going to likely be different although the longer MSR Groundhogs(not the Minis)IMO come close to a best all around stake. The wt of these things is heavily factored into my choices but certainly is not the highest priority.

If you want to go gram weenie switch out the stock cord of the MSR Groundhogs with ZP's 1.25 mm yellow Z-line and clip metal zippers off replacing with McNetts Fabric Zipper pulls. On the tiniest of metal or plastic zipper pulls make sure this makes sense which it often isn't.

Have you considered a torso length sleeping pad for the summer?

[Dogwood]

I too am not keen on regularly throwing down any rainwear as a ground cloth regularly as a ground sheet. Most of my rainwear I want to well repel rain with my elections almost universally costing $110 or more for jackets.

[Kc Fiedler]

I recently (August 15-September 6) used the ZP groundsheet-poncho over 320 miles of the CO trail, combined with a ZP 7x9 cuben tarp and rain kilt. I don't think punctures are really much of a problem using the poncho as a ground cloth as long as you're reasonably careful picking your sites and removing sharp objects, which you REALLY should be doing anyway with the neoair xlite. The 1oz cuben is very tough and any punctures or tears can be easily repaired with duct tape or cuben patches. I don't think I had any punctures at all during the trip.

The biggest problem I had with the ZP groundsheet-poncho was keeping the zippers functioning properly. The ZP groundsheet-poncho has very small lightweight zippers that are easily gummed up. They're hard enough to keep clean in the field and sliding smoothly without rubbing them into the snow, ice and mud when used as a groundsheet. I had quite a bit of bad weather on the trip and several times I was left struggling with a stuck zipper as rain, snow and sleet started to fall. This eventually led to one the zippers separating at the bottom and requiring a field repair.

Two other problems I had with the ZP groundsheet-poncho:
1. You need to protect your arms in really cold weather. I started out using my windshirt under the poncho, but switched to wearing a rain shell I bought in a town stop. (This sounds redundant, but actually works well when the weather is really crappy.) I'm going to make some sleeves from an old dri duck jacket as an alternative.
2. Forget trying to hitchhike in a ZP groundsheet-poncho and kilt outfit. You basically look like you're wearing garbage bags. No one would stop for me while wearing this outfit. I might as well have been carrying a chain saw.

All that said, the ZP groundsheet-poncho was one of my favorite pieces of gear. It performed really well in everything from relatively warm (~70*) rain to freezing rain, snow and hail. I loved being able to pull my arms in, raise the poncho up high and access my pack, drink, eat lunch, even poop under shelter in the worst weather.

Thanks for your feedback - I am always hyper careful of checking my sleeping space before setting up my ground cloth. That's why my X-Lite is not 4 years old and still going strong. It's a good reminder, tho! It's good to hear that you didn't have problems using it as a ground cloth... perhaps I'll consider it more strongly. Of course this list is really only planning for summer conditions so I appreciate the reminder about cold weather and cold arms! It would definitely be something to consider in 3-season weather.

You might want to consider factoring in various trip conditions when choosing things like summer tee, tent stakes, etc. For example, the summer tee I'd choose for summer on the AT in the mid Atlantic states, on the PNT, or the dry PCT through Cali and OR would likely all be different. I also like 1/2 zip tees on longer duration summer hikes that offer changing weather patterns. Tent stakes I choose for a coastal beach hike where I'm going to be sheltering on the beach occasionally, hammocking in Hawaii off trail in steep wet jungle like terrain, tenting in winter on snowpack, possibly above treelike tenting on gravely shallow soils, etc is going to likely be different although the longer MSR Groundhogs(not the Minis)IMO come close to a best all around stake. The wt of these things is heavily factored into my choices but certainly is not the highest priority.

If you want to go gram weenie switch out the stock cord of the MSR Groundhogs with ZP's 1.25 mm yellow Z-line and clip metal zippers off replacing with McNetts Fabric Zipper pulls. On the tiniest of metal or plastic zipper pulls make sure this makes sense which it often isn't.

Have you considered a torso length sleeping pad for the summer?

I'm curious what factors would cause you to choose a different summer polyester (or merino) t-shirt for the different trails mentioned. In my use, the outer layers of my clothing system take care of small weather differences in summer conditions, but I'm curious what you're getting at. Do you find that unzipping a thin polyester wicking t-shirt causes a meaningful change in heat regulation? I suppose my t-shirts tend to just be the thinnest, quickest drying buffer I can find to go between me and my pack for summer conditions, their only job is to be the lightest weight wicking shirt I can find.

I appreciate the reminder about factoring in various conditions but, again, in my head at least, that goes without saying and I suppose I should have been more specific but this gear list is meant to cover temperatures, conditions, and events which could be reasonably expected in temperate North American forests. Just an average summer gear list, as stated, meant to work for usual summer conditions ... not Hawaiian beach hiking or winter tenting snowpack conditions - I realize both of these require different gear loadouts. I'm looking for the lightest polyester t-shirt (no-zip) that anyone is aware of and has been happy with. My long sleeve polyester shirt from Outdoor Research (with 1/2 zip) weighs less than my Mountain Hardwear Wicked Lite t-****s... there must be lighters polyester shirts out there.

I'm not really concerned about replacing a 3 inch piece of string with another 3 inch piece of string. Though I have been known to replace a few longer "strings" with Dyna Glide. The 1/8 of a gram saved by swapping tent stake pull loops seems a little unnecessary to my personal ultralight tastes. Replacing zippers just seems like a great way for me to permanently ruin my own nice gear so, while it's an interesting idea, I think I'll pass. I think I only have about two items with zippers on them anyways.

Up until this point I've not felt the need to save 4 ounces on my pack setup for a shorter pad. I tend to be a side sleeper and in my past experiences my backpack (or other various carried goodies) under my legs just don't fit the bill for a restful and comfortable night's sleep. I sleep like a baby on that full length pad and having a great restful sleep is very important to me for being prepared to hike again the next day. This is why I still carry a full length X Lite. Perhaps I'll try a short length pad again to see if I can make it work. Thanks!

Thanks for your opinion on the rainwear ground sheet... I've always felt the same way but I'm really tempted to try it and see if using a poncho as a tarp can work for me. We'll see. I'd feel awful annoyed if I accidentally destroyed an expensive piece of gear (though I realize it can be taped).



Thanks for everyone's input!

[garlic08]

Would you care to share what meal planning and a sample diet look like for you for a stove less trip? Very interested.

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I carry dried food that can be rehydrated in cold water: Rolled oats, instant mashed potatoes, instant refried beans (hard to find in trail towns). Fats are cheese, nuts, and nut butters. Some dried food can be eaten right out of the package: Rolled oats again, dried fruit, Ramen noodles. Tortillas are compact, last a long time packed, and are salty and fatty.

Going stoveless, it may help to throw out the idea of meals. I eat every time I take a break, five or six times a day. Not really meals. I know I need about a pound of food for every ten or twelve miles. For instance, heading into the Hundred Mile Wilderness on the AT, I bought eight pounds of groceries in Monson and packed some leftover pizza and a deli sandwich.

[garlic08]

What items are in your no cook kit ? How much space did you save ?

Thom

I carry a plastic cup and spoon in my food bag, and some food packs inside the cup. So no basically no pot or fuel bottle in volume, about two liters saved. It was just enough to comfortably use the next smaller pack at the time.

[Dogwood]

I'm curious what factors would cause you to choose a different summer polyester (or merino) t-shirt for the different trails mentioned. In my use, the outer layers of my clothing system take care of small weather differences in summer conditions, but I'm curious what you're getting at. Do you find that unzipping a thin polyester wicking t-shirt causes a meaningful change in heat regulation? I suppose my t-shirts tend to just be the thinnest, quickest drying buffer I can find to go between me and my pack for summer conditions, their only job is to be the lightest weight wicking shirt I can find.'

"Summer" conditions are not the same everywhere. I was hoping you'd have gathered that. There is hot dry, sunny hot, hot wet and humid possibly with some overcast skies, summer cold dry, etc variations of summer depending on hiking location. Since it's summer i'm typically spending a good amount of time in a tee or polo as a stand alone torso piece. Under this scenario sure I sometimes will layer up adding a shell, LS etc into the mix etc but there are many times when I'm cranking in summer i want to stay with that one layer and dump heat not add another layer which almost always traps more heat. in these times I'm looking for venting options as part of the breathability and comfortability equation. this is when i tend to look for loose fitting stylish polys with loose necklines with perhaps greater venting back panels or more breathable mesh panels from the mid arms or armpits down each side to the waistline with some type of legitimate odor control added as a bonus. one such poly tee i liked was the NIKE pro combat heat wear that had these features snagged off a Sports authority clearance rack for $18 each. i bought two. In merinos i love deep chest zips in a 120-150g/m 2 wt tee such as the 150 wt IBEX Echo Sport Zip, http://shop.ibex.com/merino-wool-clo...echo-sport-zip as per Skurka's find i got likewise turned onto, or the Icebreaker Sport GT 1/4 Zip tee at, if I'm remembering correctly, 120 or 140 wt. I haven't been able to locate any more of these IB zip tees and my last one just bit the dust after 1500+ miles and many sewing patches;they snagged and pulled terribly though while demanding $$. Same with the older even lighter wt than now Smartwool micro wt tees.

i'm on board with you always(almost) wanting for summer, 'thinnest, quickest drying buffer I can find to go between me and my pack for summer conditions, their only job is to be the lightest weight wicking shirt I can find.' Depending on individual situations sometimes the thinnest isn't the best as far as durability. When i'm pushing through overgrown alder trails of the PNT or off trail wandering in large swaths of manzanita on the Colorado Plateau or making my way though Dirty Devil River tamarisk choked riverbank I don't want the thinnest even in summer. i want a shirt that isn't going to easily get ripped or holes poked in it like the lighter wt merino knit tees or pilled or pulled runs in the lightest wt polys(unless they were dirt Goodwill cheap. In the summer desert may even get on board with a stylish collared 1/4 zip or 1/4 button Polo to put the collar up to protect from sun. Summer can also entail biting nasties. Under conditions of heavy skeeter, biting noseeum, black fly pressure i don't want the thinnest shirt they can bite through or in my case always seem to find that bare skin though a rip or hole in a thin shirt.

we have to get away from this two option synthetic OR merino shirt mindset too.There are shirts that combine synthetics and natural fibers which can offer a very good balance of various mixed fibers. For example the Patagonia Daily Merino tee is 52% merino and 48 % Capilene with some odor controlling tech built in. I've been pleased with their performance on and off trail.

there's another assumption that synthetics dry so much faster than merino. I say yes and no. it depends. Someone did a simple study on dry times that was articled on BPL and it seems that keeps getting brought up as that's the final word on dry time scenarios. I say uh wait a minute. On a Sheltowee Trace thru during the humid summer sweatiest of KY I carried two tees - a Icebreaker Sport GT !/2 zip tee in, again I think 120 wt, AND that Nike Pro Combat polyester tee both in black/charcoal. Soaked solidly through, water squeezed out, laid out in the sun on a slab there were comparable, virtually identical dry times. With heavier wt, beyond 150 wt, merino yes i've noticed slightly longer dry times compared to my synthetics BUT at the lower wt knit merinos the dry time difference was negligible. Besides, dry time priority has to be taken into context of really just how critical it is. it was 't under that summer time ST thru scenario having two tees to swap.

[Kc Fiedler]

"Summer" conditions are not the same everywhere. I was hoping you'd have gathered that.

I appreciate you providing insight on your personal clothing system with the sole exception of this unnecessary, unhelpful, and insulting remark.

[Dogwood]

My blunt comments were not intended to deliberately offend but to be helpful so that you'd be driven to consider conditions more deeply than it seems you have. This will be helpful to you personally in your outdoor adventures and make you a better outdoor educator and backpacking group leader.What we both want is the same, to be the best we can be, to be the best outdoor leaders we can be. Sometimes that process, especially in non financially or otherwise obligated two party relations, learning, moving forward can involve contact with blunt educational sources. Holding oneself up to the high personal standard of choosing not to be (easily)offended can make one a better person too.
Given your UL pared down well considered kits, insights you've shared not as a beginner but a leader, willingness to observe, consciousness of being the best you can be, demonstration of a quick forward thinking mindset, and since you are an outdoor educator by trade (backpacking trip leader and full time ski instructor) and you said, "I appreciate the reminder about factoring in various conditions but, again, in my head at least, that goes without saying"and i already stated "the summer tee I'd choose for summer on the AT in the mid Atlantic states, on the PNT, or the dry PCT through Cali and OR would likely all be different. I also like 1/2 zip tees on longer duration summer hikes that offer changing weather patterns", YES I assumed, wanted to believe, you knew not just through cursory lip service, but through some wider comprehensive application and greater consideration outside of your norms, to be more familiar with 'summer' conditions, more precisely a variety of summer N. American Forest conditions.

Summer conditions can range broadly given the variety, nature, and far ranging geographically located N. American forests. Yes, I expect you to have thought about that, as you implied it was obvious.

[Kc Fiedler]

Alright, we're going to get this thread back on to a productive path. Much appreciation to everyone who has helped so far.

Still searching for suggestions on a lightweight t-shirt if anyone has favorites.

Any great resources out there for going stoveless? General meal plans, food experiments, tips, tricks, go-to meal staples? Definitely considering this.

[garlic08]

There are many previous threads here on WB on stoveless food. Try to glean some tips, but mainly just walk through grocery store aisles and try stuff on your trips. Pay attention to calories per unit weight.

Food choices are highly personal. My long-time hiking partner is also a very successful stoveless hiker, and our diets have nearly nothing in common. His food is not at all palatable to me.

I my opinion, the best lightweight T-shirt is not bringing one. I wear a long sleeve trekking shirt all the time, augmented by a base layer when needed. I like to keep covered from sun, bugs, and poison plants, so I don't carry sunscreen or bug repellent either for further weight savings. I haven't carried or used a T-shirt for over a dozen years, and miles well into five digits. In fact, about the same time I went stoveless, I left my T-shirts home, too.

[Kc Fiedler]

There are many previous threads here on WB on stoveless food. Try to glean some tips, but mainly just walk through grocery store aisles and try stuff on your trips. Pay attention to calories per unit weight.

Food choices are highly personal. My long-time hiking partner is also a very successful stoveless hiker, and our diets have nearly nothing in common. His food is not at all palatable to me.

I my opinion, the best lightweight T-shirt is not bringing one. I wear a long sleeve trekking shirt all the time, augmented by a base layer when needed. I like to keep covered from sun, bugs, and poison plants, so I don't carry sunscreen or bug repellent either for further weight savings. I haven't carried or used a T-shirt for over a dozen years, and miles well into five digits. In fact, about the same time I went stoveless, I left my T-shirts home, too.

Thanks, Garlic, your insight it appreciated. I will do the requisite searching and digging. Are you, by chance, aware of any good nutritional information or tips on how to make sure you're balancing nutrition with a stoveless diet? Again, I will do research and digging on my own, just thought you might have an idea off the top of your head.

[garlic08]

...Are you, by chance, aware of any good nutritional information or tips on how to make sure you're balancing nutrition with a stoveless diet? Again, I will do research and digging on my own, just thought you might have an idea off the top of your head.

Sure. A few rules of thumb: carbs are 100 cal/oz, fats are 200 cal/oz. A decent backpacking diet should average 120 to 130 cal/oz, so mainly carbs and not too much fat. Generally if you're getting enough calories with semi-decent, real food, you'll get enough protein and other nutrients.

I don't like bars and other packaged food, first because I don't like the amount of sugar in them, second because I don't like carrying the packaging. I'm happier with a bag of cashews (fat and protein) and a bag of raisins (carbs for quick energy), all natural and real food, and much cheaper than bars.

Rolled oats are a good source of carbs with a low glycemic index and some whole-grain nutrition and protein. Add nuts (more protein) and raisins and you've got trail-made muesli. Just add water, powdered milk optional (yet more protein). But beware--some people have a low tolerance to oats--they are a natural laxative.

I like to carry one fresh veg item for every day, if only a carrot, a pepper, an apple. It lets me kid myself I'm eating healthy. Anything you can forage is a bonus. In berry season, I don't carry dried fruit, for instance. I don't bother with supplements, being of the school that that's money, literally, down the toilet. My wife adds magnesium and potassium to help with muscle cramps. Again, everyone's different.