1990's Speed Hikers compared to modern day Speed hikers

[Wolf - 23000]

If anyone deserves credit for the light-weight movement, it would have to be Sears or Kephart.

Who is Sears and Kephart???? I would credit Jardine with starting the light weight movement because simple for years there were already hikers traveling lighter than Jardine himself. A woman by the name of Grandma Gatewood comes to mind.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply and sharing some history. I really do hope we get a chance to meet sometime as you truly have been been a source of inspiration via Lynn's video and as a pioneer of super ultralight backpacking in general.

Apples to apples: no it is not! I might be wrong, but I don't think I've ever typed or spoken the phrase "I broke Ward's record" because of the reasons you mention (among others). From all we've collectively brainstormed on this thread, a lot has changed in over two decades, so it would be a fool's errand to try and level the playing field across such a great span.

What I have claimed (and still do) is the first sub-60 day self-supported thru-hike on the AT. The self-supported guidelines, as you know, have been a source of great debate. Due to lack of info and changes in decades since Ward's hike, I opted to adopt those of contemporary hiker Scott Williamson. My seven guidelines along with all hike data are here: http://sub60.wikispaces.com/About

I successfully followed all seven guidelines on my hike. Some seem to be more restrictive than Ward's hiking style while others less so. But there is no doubt that I (and all other modern hikers for that matter) enjoy advantages in technology, trail services, etc. that folks in the early 90s didn't have. It's a different era.

If we were intent on trying to draw apple to apple comparisons, we'd be better suited to do so within the same time period. And with all the activity in the last five years, there's no greater potential for comparing individual efforts than now... As long as each effort is transparent enough to actually do so.

But that's getting away from the subject of this particular thread, which I don't want to do just yet, because we can all benefit from learning from (and respecting) those who were doing this stuff long before it became all the craze

Mat, I look forward to that day when we can meet, maybe on the trail some place. It won't be any time soon. Right now, I'm kind of on the other side of the world from you.

When I'm in the states, I still get out there and hike a couple hundred miles a year. In a few more years, I'll be back out there thru-hiking the new AT or PCT. Maybe even get around to finally doing the CDT - long over due.

Thank you for including the link and what is consider self supported. Ward followed most of the "Self-supported" guidelines. He followed the official trail including taking the canoe across the Kennebec River (the official AT is the canoe ride). The one thing he didn't follow is he did hitch rides in/out of town. He even went as far to have a special shirt made up that said "Northbound thru-hiker".

I'm now able to run a few miles without a pack, something I did not do when I was a hiker. My pack is not that heavy. It would just be interesting maybe to start running with a back on some. See where it takes me.

Wolf

[Engine]

I'm now able to run a few miles without a pack, something I did not do when I was a hiker. My pack is not that heavy. It would just be interesting maybe to start running with a back on some. See where it takes me.

Wolf

A few years ago I ran from Neel's Gap to Hogpen Gap and back with a mere 10-pound pack in 3 hours. That worked out to a half-marathon with about 6,000' of up and down and I was pretty tired afterward. It did provide me with a tiny bit of insight into how immensely difficult a self-supported FKT attempt would be. 35+ miles daily for almost 2 months in the Appalachians while trying to meet your own logistical needs is hard to comprehend. Amazing stuff...hat's off!

[Sly]

Yes I am aware of Matt Kirk who paid hikers on the trail for food. Sense the hikers he paid carry food instead of Matt Kirk himself, I call that support but that is a topic for another thread.
Wolf

Hopefully never, ever to be discussed earnestly. That's has to be the silliest argument ever.

[rafe]

"Something has been going on these past few strenuous years which, in the din of war and general upheaval, has been somewhat lost from the public mind. It is the slow quiet development of the recreational camp. It is something neither urban nor rural. It escapes the hecticness of the one, and the loneliness of the other. And it escapes also the common curse of both - the high powered tension of the economic scramble. All communities face an "economic" problem, but in different ways. The camp faces it through cooperation and mutual helpfulness, the others through competition and mutual fleecing."


- Benton MacKaye: An Appalachian Trail, A Project in Regional Planning (1921)

[hobbs]

Wolf I have a question.

Did Ward Lenard hike to mileage or just locations he knew on the trail? You know to this point by tonight is such and such...or did he just hike until he felt like it....That was in my head...Thanks...

[Traillium]

"Something has been going on these past few strenuous years which, in the din of war and general upheaval, has been somewhat lost from the public mind. It is the slow quiet development of the recreational camp. It is something neither urban nor rural. It escapes the hecticness of the one, and the loneliness of the other. And it escapes also the common curse of both - the high powered tension of the economic scramble. All communities face an "economic" problem, but in different ways. The camp faces it through cooperation and mutual helpfulness, the others through competition and mutual fleecing."


- Benton MacKaye: An Appalachian Trail, A Project in Regional Planning (1921)

Love it — and still relevant today!


Bruce Traillium, brucetraillium.wordpress.com

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf I have a question.

Did Ward Lenard hike to mileage or just locations he knew on the trail? You know to this point by tonight is such and such...or did he just hike until he felt like it....That was in my head...Thanks...

He hiked to location. He set a go on how far he wanted to travel for the day and where he wanted to camp for the night. Often he would sleep behind the shelters if he found there or camp at places that were less know to most hikers. Rarely did he camp with people.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Hopefully never, ever to be discussed earnestly. That's has to be the silliest argument ever.

Sly,

This thread wouldn't be the same unless you made your silliest argument. If you look at Scott Williamson write-up describing a self-supported hike it says, "Hike as a backpacker, carrying ALL FOOD and equipment between resupply towns." In case you missed the link it is found at:

http://sub60.wikispaces.com/About

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

A few years ago I ran from Neel's Gap to Hogpen Gap and back with a mere 10-pound pack in 3 hours. That worked out to a half-marathon with about 6,000' of up and down and I was pretty tired afterward. It did provide me with a tiny bit of insight into how immensely difficult a self-supported FKT attempt would be. 35+ miles daily for almost 2 months in the Appalachians while trying to meet your own logistical needs is hard to comprehend. Amazing stuff...hat's off!

Engine,

That is what I was looking into trying with a full pack. I tried it a few time. I may need a little heavier pack that can handled the bouncing better than some of my lighter packs. Some of my lighter packs, I'm afraid would not be able to make a long trek - hiking they are fine, running not so good.

Wolf

[Malto]

Engine,

That is what I was looking into trying with a full pack. I tried it a few time. I may need a little heavier pack that can handled the bouncing better than some of my lighter packs. Some of my lighter packs, I'm afraid would not be able to make a long trek - hiking they are fine, running not so good.

Wolf

The self support folks that carry "real" packs aren't doing a lot of running. The supported runners are taking vests. While I have run with my MLD Burn, it is not something that I would want to do for more than a lond day or two.

[Wolf - 23000]

The self support folks that carry "real" packs aren't doing a lot of running. The supported runners are taking vests. While I have run with my MLD Burn, it is not something that I would want to do for more than a lond day or two.

Malto,

I might be a little different. My full pack is about the same size weight/size as many runners. When I did the Colorado Trail in 2015, I used a 2.4 oz backpack. It worked fine for hiking but I was afraid it would rip if I tried running. I also have a 7 oz pack that seems to handle the bouncing better. I just have to build up to being able to run with it.

Wolf

[jeffmeh]

Fin.

Karl Meltzer AT SB FKT by JeffMeh 09-18-2016 Final.jpg

[jeffmeh]

Sorry, wrong thread. Need some coffee, lol.

[Just Bill]

Wolf-
You may be interested in Matt's pack design... roughly a 8-10 ounce (depending on fabric choices) design that is suited fairly well for fastpacking overall. As Malto pointed out, current pack design seems to trend to either a version of some sort of Ray Way pack or Glenn Van Peski design- or a built up running vest. Matt's is a bottom loader with a bit of a runners vest front. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...5E/mobilebasic

Thanks for some of the information about Ward's hike. While we would not call that kosher by today's standard... that doesn't take anything away from his achievements or reduce his pioneering hike in any way.

On the carry ALL food debate... Scott Williamson made allowances for trail magic, and he, Anish, and Matt have all been beneficiaries of trail magic on their hikes. Being transparent (honestly reporting) what you did and what happened is the accepted practice on the matter and Matt honestly reported his encounters despite the fact that it opened his attempt up to scrutiny, but you would find Heather, Scott and Matt all have similar reports. You could make an argument that any hiker who so much as pops a blueberry in their mouth or a nettle in their soup violates the all food rule if you wanted to be extreme.

However that said; as unintentionally posted earlier, on his Florida trail attempt Matt did amend the rules to exclude trail magic. As he pointed out earlier- the minimal amount of calories obtained are not worth the discussion and it is not only simpler but good sense to simply excuse/refuse yourself from any form of trail magic. Moving forward it would makes sense for all of us to adopt that guideline for self or unsupported attempts.

If nothing else, on a personal level... it's a shame to have such a monumental achievement even lightly tarnished for a piece of pizza (Anish-PCT) or snagging a spare meal (Matt-AT).

[Wolf - 23000]

Just Bill,

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm more of a top loader myself simple because nearly all my total weight is food/water. When I did the Colorado Trail, I used the Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil. It is made similar to Glenn Van Peski designed packs but lighter. http://www.seatosummit.com/product/?...o2=0&o3=377-36 It worked great for hiking but not so good for running. I also have a 7 oz EMS pack. It is a little tougher build and more comfortable. I believe it could handle stress including with running for a few miles a day. When I get back to the states, I plan on giving it a shot on my next backpacking trip. See how it feels.


To your second point. Matt, Anish, Williamson and others whom I missed, the biggest key is having a level playing field and just being honest. If someone goes out there, has a lot of followers, well I'm sure you know some of their followers are going to want to support their hike with food or supplies. Some speed hikers may even use fuzzy logic guidelines to make claims that are completely misleading. The real long time hikers might know the story of one speed hiker who started off unsupported, had to stop about half way due of illness for a few days, had his dad join him to provide vehicle support and was able to finish the trail. He claim he had the speed record by not including his sick days.

My point being if someone earns the record, then hats off to them. When it gets to a point of well I never hitch into town but did order a pizza to be delivered to me on the trail, or I didn't want to seem rude so I spend the night in their cabin. Then it gets to be like really. That is just my two cents.

Wolf

[Just Bill]

Wolf-
https://ultimatedirection.com/pb-adventure-vest-3-0/

This is the general direction (pun intended) that racing/fastpacking style packs are evolving into... a bit like your STS pack but with more access up front and better carrying for some running. But still enough volume for a SUL hiker to use. I still remain a bit skeptical of the bottom load concept, however Matt does occasionally win me over on the argument but it's hard to break a lifetime of pack use/knowledge in it's favor. He does make a valid point that heavier items carried nearer the torso can be much better for running overall- and I think most of us here would have to concede that he remains an authority on the subject.

Yes... as we all discussed above- if there are 10 names on the list of self supported hikers it might be a stretch. It is yet early days but the "rules" are firming up.

Hitching- makes good sense. If nothing else- if you are self-supported- then be self-supported by your own two feet for the duration.
Food/Trail Magic- it makes sense to avoid the debate as you say- simply cut it out and there is nothing to feel bad about nor any reason for a good natured fan to tempt you.

But much like Ward hitching - just because the guidelines and rules evolve- it has little effect on those who come before.

If anything, better and clearer guidelines overall prevent things like the sick day fella you mentioned or other fuzzy logic from occurring.
Honesty and transparency then allows future participants to identify potential problems and evolve the rules for hikes that follow.
It is in that persons best interest to do so- to prevent false claims or weaseling around grey areas from someone looking to claim the FKT they fought so hard to earn.

[Dogwood]

Wolf 23000 has an extreme minimalist, with strong elements of a survivalist, type LD hiking approach from what I've observed. He's been doing it since the 90's into the early 2000's. He took UL into the realm of unsupported extreme SUL with an emphasis on extreme. And he didn't do it with gear alone or buying tons of pricey SUL gear. He could have been one who inspired others to put the emphasis on light in the term fast and light. His SUL minimalist approach has been the most extreme I've seen on a LD largely unsupported hike. What I've seen him taking on LD unsupported hikes in the early 2000's resembles what I've seen supported FKTers taking with them on their AT, JMT, LT, and PCT attempts post 2010.

[Dogwood]

Thx for posting this JB. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...5E/mobilebasic

[Just Bill]

Wolf 23000 has an extreme minimalist, with strong elements of a survivalist, type LD hiking approach from what I've observed. He's been doing it since the 90's into the early 2000's. He took UL into the realm of unsupported extreme SUL with an emphasis on extreme. And he didn't do it with gear alone or buying tons of pricey SUL gear. He could have been one who inspired others to put the emphasis on light in the term fast and light. His SUL minimalist approach has been the most extreme I've seen on a LD largely unsupported hike. What I've seen him taking on LD unsupported hikes in the early 2000's resembles what I've seen supported FKTers taking with them on their AT, JMT, LT, and PCT attempts post 2010.

I believe I remember seeing some of that info before...

Tough part these days... especially on the big three... is that it is slightly irresponsible to advocate any serious minimalism due to impact.
I have done a few "blanket trips" as some call them- a wool blanket and a knife with minimal food. While I could likely travel the AT (during summers) and be confident I could likely shelter myself with just a knife- that isn't productive.
Sears and Kephart were mentioned earlier in the thread as SUL pioneers too... however cutting a browse bed and lopping a few saplings for a shelter is more parlor trick/good knowledge than practical travel method. What has really changed is that we can travel just as light as them without the impact. That is today's SUL challenge- to travel lightly in both impact and weight when using established trails. (I'm still a proponent of some practice and bending of the rules when well off the beaten path- but that is something one does- not advocates or discusses in a such a public place).

That said- I would be interested in Wolf's experiences and gear choices (in the LNT context).
Not saying that's the case- but if making browse beds or similar (even duff beds) is the reason to leave a mat at home- that's a private matter.
If I have to throw down; I suggest a Neo-Air, even if some of us know there are other ways to get it done- those are best kept to ourselves.