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  1. #1

    Default Trail Run / Overnighters

    I run trails 2-3 times a week and like taking trips to do runs in the mountains (Heading out tomorrow morning to run near Blowing Rock) but only day trips.

    My question: Have any of you guys tried to do a REALLY minimalist type trail run / overnighter?

    I'm thinking I could literally have a down blanket, a rain fly and use my poles. Dehydrated food and water sources would be a must. Bring a base layer of wool and a rain shell and that is about it.

    Anyone done this??

    FFN

  2. #2
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    Do it very often. Last Friday evening two of us started out on a 50 mile loop. Hiked/ran until about midnight. Camps using a stripped down version of my gear. MY MLD Burn, a 1 lb shelter, down quilt and lightweight pad. No cooking, few extra clothes, very lightweight setup. Finished before 3pm.

    This is type of hike is not a big stretch from what I normally do on a multiday hike except the window is shorter, I can tailor gear specifically for the weather window and I tend to do longer mile days than on multi-day hikes where I would not enjoy doing much over 40 mpd on back to back days.
    enemy of unnecessary but innovative trail invention gadgetry

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malto View Post
    Do it very often. Last Friday evening two of us started out on a 50 mile loop. Hiked/ran until about midnight. Camps using a stripped down version of my gear. MY MLD Burn, a 1 lb shelter, down quilt and lightweight pad. No cooking, few extra clothes, very lightweight setup. Finished before 3pm.

    This is type of hike is not a big stretch from what I normally do on a multiday hike except the window is shorter, I can tailor gear specifically for the weather window and I tend to do longer mile days than on multi-day hikes where I would not enjoy doing much over 40 mpd on back to back days.
    Very cool. What is your kit like? Understanding you tweak it for the weather, but wat is typical and what is the weight? I think 50 mi would be perfect, depending on terrain, but man I'd want a hot meal. What do you eat??

    i have some buddies doing rim to rim and back soon, so they'd love to some trips like this in preparation.

  4. #4

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    I'm another weirdo like Malto but he's a stronger hiker than me. Even though I'm a weirdo I have the wherewithal to know and say that. Minimalist overnighters or weekends where the goal is to walk, walk, walk, night hike, little bit of running, and a little more running. Hopefully, little stumbling. I'm definitely more of a hiker than a runner. Then, CRASH. OR, maybe not. I have gone to work right after. LOL. However, mega trail mileage or racing a clock at a rampant pace is usually not the ultimate goal which I'm assuming is a bit a different goal than Maltos'. The mileage just accumulates because the hrs I'm spending walking/hiking/running in the Zone mostly at a moderate pace. I tend to do it under fair weather like in the earlier Fall to stay more minimalist. I also tend to stop and sleep usually carrying just a 6 oz bivy as shelter but I'm getting more and more into practicing the 30-50 hr/2-3 days straight hiking scenarios. I just went 4 days straight(no sleep) hiking in Oregon. Crashed hard. It wasn't good for me on a 360 mile thru-hike. The season, weather, location, and one's skill set ultimately depend on the kit or if much a kit at all is taken. I also tend to do it after a strong hiking spring and summer when I'm challenging myself to be less gear reliant. Tom Brown classes have that affect on people.

    IMO, a typically defined R2R or R2R2R(there's more than one way to do a R2R or R2R2R!) is a good place to earn your chops on such a goal in the earlier fall. However, it depends on how you're planning it. Are you planning on never camping/sleeping going the whole way without doing a long stop? If so it becomes more of an ultra(ultra hike).

    For a typical R2R or R2R2R utilizing the N. Kaibab and S. Kaibab or BA in early fall under cooler fair weather, open CG slots(Indian Garden, BA, Phantom Ranch, Cottonwood, N. and S Rims) while all are still open it's quite easy IMO to go super minimalist. It can be like an Ultra. You supplement your food at PR, N.and S. Rims), maybe even at IG and Cottonwood. I'll tell ya how I've done it without being a mooch at IG and CW if you PM me. Carry snacks to be eaten largely or entirely on the go. Don't carry a stove. Get hot water from PR, N. and S Rims sources or cook over a SMALL twig fire at one of the CGs or bring self warming food if you have your heart set on a hot meal. PR has hot meals and of course both the rims so there's your hot meal! If you don't camp/sleep you can go even more minimalist. Under this scenario a light 4-5 oz day pack with high cal quickly energizing snacks, wind jacket, water bottle, and headlamp other than the apparel and accessories I had on is all I took. Another time I added and slept in that bivy on a longer non typical R2R2R. These and other minimalist R2R's and R2R2R's or R2R2R2R were not my first times doing a R2R or R2R2R.

  5. #5

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    If you're going to join them and be practicing before that trip may I suggest you do a yo yo segment of the Foothills Tr say from Table Rock SP ascending Mt Sassafras down to Lower Whitewater Falls or the Eastatoe Gorge Spur to the end and back to Table Rock.

  6. #6

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    @dogwood I'm not planning on joining them this year for R2R2R this year, but thinking about it next year. They are running R2R, spending night at a hotel and then r2r back the next day. I have some other peeps interested in doing it next year, but some of the girls want a room, hot meal and a bed - so doubt the UL camping will be part of that trip.

    My urge to do some UL trail running around here (NC) is not to race against a clock, but to run a nice pace, log 20 or so miles (more or less depending on terrain / elevation) - bivouc, eat, sleep and then do the same the next day. I just think that would be a blast.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishNut View Post
    My urge to do some UL trail running around here (NC) is not to race against a clock, but to run a nice pace, log 20 or so miles (more or less depending on terrain / elevation) - bivouc, eat, sleep and then do the same the next day. I just think that would be a blast.
    Right on. Loops are nice. I too like a hot meal/"carrot stop." Sounds like you might like a 50 mile loop my dog, buddy and i did recently in WNC/TN: http://matthewkirk.blogspot.com/2016...rk-ramble.html

    We were packing light. My pack was about 10lbs w/food and water. I was carrying my dogs food too (she's old, also a former thru-hiker). Starting/ending @ Sam's Gap meant we got to resupply/indulge in ice cream/hot eats in Erwin midway.

    Bottom line: if you're thoughtful with route/weather/conditions, it's quite easy to travel light enough that running/jogging is comfortable although not really necessary when logging 20ish miles/day. Enjoy the freedom and happy trails!

  8. #8

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    Correct me if I'm getting it wrong but referring to pace has by definition time written into the equation? Certainly seems being aware of the clock is part of the deal? Jus saying.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Correct me if I'm getting it wrong but referring to pace has by definition time written into the equation? Certainly seems being aware of the clock is part of the deal? Jus saying.
    Pace has an incredible affect on the body. For example Monday I did speed work, 7 miles with 4 x 1/2 mile intervals at a 7:15min pace. It's all relative, but for me that is fast. The next 2 days I was really sore and my IT Band / knee stiffened up like )@*$.

    Then take yesterday - a group of us ran 12 miles at a steady but not stupid pace of up passed Cone Manor to the Fire Tower. The pace was slow enough that we could have a conversation, slightly over a 10min pace. Today I feel like I didn't even run yesterday.

    My point: I could walk leisurely all day and cover 20+ miles without tasking my heart rate or my body, but my goal is to run this portion (initially for my first few outings) at a reasonable pace that will only take a portion of the day. If I feel good, I'll run more and if not I'll run less and hang out and just enjoy the sights and solitude.

    So the route I plan will be a length (like Mathew suggested) that I could walk it if I had to, but the goal is to run the sections, putting me at the bivouac or "Carrot Stop" locations way ahead of time to chill.

  10. #10

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    OK, I have to ask. Where does "carrot stop" come from? I'll guess maybe it has to do with Matt's diet? Isn't he a vegetarian?

    As said I've never been a competitive organized team runner or after a FKT or enter races. Just a hacker, so I'm learning. Glad you weren't offended by my posits.

  11. #11

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    OK I'm a trail runner and long time backpacker as well. I'd love to do a light overnight, but I want to know how you deal with being soaking wet from running with an overnight pack.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    OK, I have to ask. Where does "carrot stop" come from?
    You didn't read or remember that from my book? I'm devastated think of the age-old juicy carrot dangling in front of the donkey. We may find the trail's natural beauty is enough to propel us forward, but sometimes the data book's promise of a deli stop miles ahead helps too...

    Rockdoc: I've seen sweaty hikers of all paces. One trick is to stop for dinner break an hour or so before dark, maybe take a bird bath downstream and rinse out socks/briefs, then air dry for a few more miles at leisurely pace. Body will be cooled down from stop, so probably won't work back up to sweat. A change of dry camp clothes is bonus, at very least a change of briefs/socks. Going to bed rinsed off and not so sticky always makes for a better night's sleep...

  13. #13

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    LOL. I remember you live in a Tiny House, have went after FKT's, come from a running background, your posts here always containing excellent insight , and the small piece in Backpacker about you concerning your trail regimen. The Backpacker piece especially sticks out because what was quoted as you saying is quite similar as trail regimens I've followed. The book is on the reading list.

  14. #14
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    Myself and pals have done many overnight 30-50 mile mountain climbs, basically many times just leaving trailhead in evening, doing long approach, getting to base of difficult part of climb, then napping until first light. This itinerary is kind of forced because most CO summer climbs you want to be well down by noon.

    I've carried all level of gear for these, from almost nothing to full UL tent, pad and bag.

    Tons of fun!

    Also have done 14 straight April Rim rim rims in the GC, but all of these were just long "day hikes" (14-19 hours), so by your criteria, these don't apply to discussion, though on a couple recent ones, I did power nap about mid way back up last south rim up climb.. I think those naps actually helped my time!

    Google up Nolan's 14 sometime and read some of those blogs. 14 fourteeners in 60 hours is the challenge.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockDoc View Post
    OK I'm a trail runner and long time backpacker as well. I'd love to do a light overnight, but I want to know how you deal with being soaking wet from running with an overnight pack.
    I'd probably just strip down, take a bird bath if available - drip dry and then get dressed in my sleeping togs.

    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Myself and pals have done many overnight 30-50 mile mountain climbs, basically many times just leaving trailhead in evening, doing long approach, getting to base of difficult part of climb, then napping until first light. This itinerary is kind of forced because most CO summer climbs you want to be well down by noon.

    I've carried all level of gear for these, from almost nothing to full UL tent, pad and bag.

    Tons of fun!

    Also have done 14 straight April Rim rim rims in the GC, but all of these were just long "day hikes" (14-19 hours),
    That's an impressive resumé. I was on the other end of the spectrum - carrying an 80lb pack around 15mi/day for days on end. This was a grind - I look forward to having a light load and trying to cover some miles!

    I'm going to start toying around with a kit and then pick a trip and just do it. As long as I can manage water and guard against hypothermia (I can always just get up and start running again) it will all shake out.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Also have done 14 straight April Rim rim rims in the GC, but all of these were just long "day hikes" (14-19 hours), so by your criteria, these don't apply to discussion, though on a couple recent ones, I did power nap about mid way back up last south rim up climb.. I think those naps actually helped my time!
    I just booked travel for a rim-to-rim-to-rim of the Grand Canyon for mid-October. I will be staying in Tusayan right outside the South Rim, hiking the South Kaibab and North Kaibab trails to the North Rim on Day 1. I'll camp at the north rim in the hiker/biker sites. Then I'll hike down the North Kaibab and up Bright Angel on Day 2. Super excited about this! I thought about doing a rim-to-rim-to-rim in one day but that just seems really daunting to me so I want to take smaller steps.

    I've done a number of days in the vicinity of ~30 miles or so but I think that both of these days in the Grand Canyon should be harder than the 30 milers I did on the PCT in SoCal, for example, or the 30 miler I did once on the AT in southern Pennsylvania. I've hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim before, but it was a super leisurely trip staying three nights along the corridor. So I know the trail but this experience will be way different.

    I'm looking to do some different things in 2017. I want to do a 7 day hike of the JMT and possibly some other "fast" hikes and I want to get a lighter minimalist kit put together well before then. I just got back from the High Sierra Trail and John Muir Trail doing mostly high teens to low 20s. I'm happiest when moving along and get bored pretty easily when I have too much time in camp ... so for me, I want to move more in the direction of speed hiking, even though the kind of pace I'm talking about (like rim-to-rim-to-rim over two days) is nothing compared to what a lot of fast packers do.

    Right now I'm probably taking my ULA CDT, zPacks 10F bag, zPacks Hexamid Twin, and very little else on the Grand Canyon hike but I'm also looking at the zPacks zero and Ultimate Direction FastPack 30. And also the ULA Fastpack but it isn't any lighter than my CDT so ...

    Anyway, interesting discussion....

  17. #17
    Registered User drinkwater's Avatar
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    I like to do overnight fastpacks, usually aim for 25 miles out and 25 miles back. My goal pace is 15 min/ mile pace. I also run with my dogs and carry food and water for them. I've modified a Golite pack for running. Loaded weight is between 8 to 10 lbs. I also stash food/drinks on the outward leg around halfway mark. I carefully review water sources before trip to keep my water weight as low as possible ( I filter water) and hand carry 32oz. I use a cut down z-pad and down sleeping quilt. I have a tarp made from two plastic table covers and a mesh tent. I love getting up just before sunrise on the return trip and running as the sun rises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    LOL. I remember you...have went after FKT's,
    That could be the understatement of the year!

  19. #19

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    Great thread and I'm now inspired

  20. #20

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    Updated my kit, now have an MLD Core 28L pack that sits just snug on my back. Have cut down my Z Rest and use it as frame inside the frameless pack. On the ground it covers from my shoulders to below my hips, and use the pack itself under my legs if needed.

    Great tips above about knowing water sources and weather, all to determine that old carried weight.

    I can do 6/7 MPH with minimal shaking, the pack rides very well. It helps that I run home from work with a pack on so already feel comfortable.

    I recently did the Maryland Challenge on the AT with it. Learned a lot. I’m eyeballing a Shenandoah traverse of the AT in a similar fashion.

    I don’t have the time off from work or the ability to peel away from home life for those long distance hikes, but fastpacking is becoming quite a good bit of fun. I’m only gone from home 24-48 hours but have the ability to cover lots of miles if I forsake a little comfort. It’s awesome, in fact.

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