Would a federal freedom to roam law work in USA?

[admirald7s]

But I promise you that there are several times more Germans in Norway during the summer time enjoying the freedom to roam.

As you said in post #9, got any numbers to go with that? If you're saying you need numbers and sources to believe us, it's only fair for you to provide the same before we believe you.


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[lonehiker]

...life, liberty, and the pursuit of property.

[Oslohiker]

As you said in post #9, got any numbers to go with that? If you're saying you need numbers and sources to believe us, it's only fair for you to provide the same before we believe you.


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Nothing in English, but here it says that the Germans spend 930 000 hotel (or tent) nights in Norway, and we are a population of about 5 million:.

http://www.innovasjonnorge.no/PageFi...0-%20siste.pdf

[Oslohiker]

Nothing in English, but here it says that the Germans spend 930 000 hotel (or tent) nights in Norway, and we are a population of about 5 million:.

http://www.innovasjonnorge.no/PageFi...0-%20siste.pdf

52% of those nights are spent either in tent or a a RV.

[Oslohiker]

52% of those nights are spent either in tent or a a RV.

58% of German turists hike more than 2 hours on their stay.

[Connie]

Not to mention state parks and recreation areas, here are a few examples, to take a hike.

* The National Park Service (NPS) conserves lands and resources on 80 million acres – a Norway-sized area – in order to preserve them for the public. Any harvesting or resource removal is generally prohibited.


* The Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) manages 89 million acres – an area slightly bigger than Germany – to conserve and protect animal and plant species.


* The United States Forest Service (USFS), which oversees timber harvesting, recreation, wildlife habitat protection and other sustainable uses on a total of 193 million acres – almost the size of Turkey – mainly designated as National Forests.


* The Bureau of Land Management (BLM), managing 248 million acres [5] – an area the size of Egypt – has a multiple-use, sustained-yield mandate, supporting energy development, recreation, grazing, conservation, and other uses.


reference:
http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/291...ands-in-the-us

These are only four examples: our federal government does this.

[Connie]

This map shows even the east coast, we think of as continuous utban sprawl, has more forests than urban development.

image.png

If I were in an east coast state, I would get the oxHunt app map for that state, to find out where I have access.

It is a subscription service, because each map is updated.

I do not hunt. I only want the app, so my iPod Touch GPS will show me I am not trespassing.

The state map I have used, gives me ideas so I find out rules and regulations that may apply.

One example: I went to a national forest office in Arizona. I made certain of the information. I found out I was welcome to "primitive camp" anywhere in huge tracts of land, the ranger pointed out. He also pointed out hot springs and abandoned cabins for public use.

Of course, it was limited stay. Of course, it was pack it in - pack it out. Leave No Trace.

It was important I had a small portable Eco-toilet (boom box, equipped with RV type pump out fittings) I had purchased for my float trips on rivers.

There are different rules for different places: this was "high desert".

This is but one example of my getting out for recreation.

I do bicycling, with so-called "stealth camping" - only it is legal. I do canoeing, kayaking, camping, and hiking.

It is my experience, if you can't find a place to do these things, even fishing, boating, birdwatching.. other recreation, you haven't really looked into it.

I know people that legally motorcycle, dirt bike, ATV, and RV "boondock" legally.

It is limitated-thinking that holds people back from finding out about all there is for hiking in a natural environment.

[rickb]

What an interesting thread! I want to visit Norway now more than ever.

I would note that we have had a similar tradition in Maine for many years, albeit limited to the vast tracts of privately owned forests.

This link provides a good history: http://digitalcommons.library.umaine...74&context=mpr

The issue has taken on an elevated profile in recent years after very successful self-made business woman purchased some 100,000 acres to be preserved and if approved, made into a National Park. When she had closed off some of her property to the public, she became reviled by many of the locals.

Anyway, it's another way we Americans look at others private property. I appreciate that it's different in Norway.

[Oslohiker]

Oslohiker, you certainly have a warped sense of "freedom." What you are describing is not freedom at all. It is the big hand of government suppressing the rights of property owners.

I own a farm out near the edge of the swamp. If I catch ANYONE on my property without permission a .12 gauge shotgun will be staring them in the face, along with 5 guard dogs.

About 5 years ago, just after midnight on Christmas Eve, I held two millennial punk trespassers face down in the dirt at gunpoint for two hours until the Game and Fish wardens arrived. They were happy as hell when they saw the blue lights of the game wardens in the distance. After they were cuffed and taken into custody, we found a young doe they had shot. Bastards. Never saw those maggots, though. Oh yeah, the State sent me a check for $100 for capturing those two night-hunters. SWEET!

It's like this, Oslohiker, you can keep your uber-taxed Norwegian socialist, big-government-owns-everything, form of government. I much prefer private property ownership and the rights and freedoms contained therein.

Nevertheless, you are always welcome to the USA where freedom still means something.

OkeeefenokeeJoe

I have to emphasise that my question did not have basis in that I would suggest that Norway is a better country in general, or that I want to tell Americans what to do with their country. I just wanted some good answers to the question I put forward, which I have gotten. The lack of freedom do roam annoys me as person, and not Norway as a nation.

What the definition of freedom is has been discussed among philosophers for a very long time. Contributors are among others Steiner, Hegel, James and Schopenhauer. But I understand you have the final conclusion once and for all. For me freedom is first of all an intellectual freedom, but I sure do feel free when I exercise my freedom to roam.

The question is if people anywhere should have an absolute property sovereignty over such big areas, and wilderness in general. You say yes, but think about this. If USA had been even more capitalistic, like objectivistic Ayn Rand style, the rich 1% would not only own 40% over everything, but more than 99%. Would you still feel free? In my country the land owners still make money on hunting and fishing rights, and harvesting the forest. Other people just got the right to roam the land. Not much else. But again, this is how we do it, it does not mean that you have to do it.

Norway do not have a socialist government at the moment. But one thing they will never touch is free universal health care and the freedom to roam. Actually this non-socialistic government is working on expanding the rights of the freedom to roam (they will remove som local rights to deny access). The tax burden is not that high, and we don't have to pay for education or medical care. This is not a pissing contest, but I challenge you to come to Norway and not like our kind of freedom. Many Americans confuse socialism with communism. Remember, socialism did work for Scandinavia.

[Pedaling Fool]

I have to emphasise that my question did not have basis in that I would suggest that Norway is a better country in general, or that I want to tell Americans what to do with their country. I just wanted some good answers to the question I put forward, which I have gotten. The lack of freedom do roam annoys me as person, and not Norway as a nation.

What the definition of freedom is has been discussed among philosophers for a very long time. Contributors are among others Steiner, Hegel, James and Schopenhauer. But I understand you have the final conclusion once and for all. For me freedom is first of all an intellectual freedom, but I sure do feel free when I exercise my freedom to roam.

The question is if people anywhere should have an absolute property sovereignty over such big areas, and wilderness in general. You say yes, but think about this. If USA had been even more capitalistic, like objectivistic Ayn Rand style, the rich 1% would not only own 40% over everything, but more than 99%. Would you still feel free? In my country the land owners still make money on hunting and fishing rights, and harvesting the forest. Other people just got the right to roam the land. Not much else. But again, this is how we do it, it does not mean that you have to do it.

Norway do not have a socialist government at the moment. But one thing they will never touch is free universal health care and the freedom to roam. Actually this non-socialistic government is working on expanding the rights of the freedom to roam (they will remove som local rights to deny access). The tax burden is not that high, and we don't have to pay for education or medical care. This is not a pissing contest, but I challenge you to come to Norway and not like our kind of freedom. Many Americans confuse socialism with communism. Remember, socialism did work for Scandinavia.

Interesting thread Oslohiker.

I definitely agree that Norway is NOT a socialist country, very much a capitalistic, and with an economy based much on oil reserves from the North Sea.

Personally, I'm a believer in property rights, much preferring our current way, but I can see how this Freedom to Roam philosophy would work in places like Norway, but not here. Having said that, I've never felt trapped while out doing hikes or bike tours.

I've been to Norway, but I definitely don't pretend to be an expert on the area, but one thing I noticed from my very limited experience, is that culture in Norway is far different, not nearly as diverse. I think this is primarily because of immigration laws and that Norway's population is a mere 5-million, whereas here we are the third most populous country in the world. I'm probably wrong in this and open to correction, but that's the way I see it now.

BTW, I've never heard of this Freedom to Roam thing, so I'm going to read up on it and will be interested to follow this thread, it's definitely different than the normal threads...

[Don H]

In the US you have the right to roam most of the 30% of the land that the government owns or controls.

As far as camping or "roaming" on my private property, can I charge you a fee?

[Pedaling Fool]

I am a Norwegian, and I spend most of my vacations in the US (about seventeen now). I have also worked there, and been a student there. There are a lot I love about USA, but the lack of freedom to roam has annoyed me quite a lot.

What is freedom to roam, and how does it work?
Well, there are differences between countries, but here is how it works in Norway:
- You can hike in any wilderness areas, who ever owns it (also on private land), and no one can deny you that.
- You can put up a tent, as long as it is at least 150 meters from the nearest building.
- You can stay in the same spot at a maximum three days in a row.
- You can even bike on the trails.

What has annoyed me in the US.
- Most land you can’t hike freely on, because it is private property. And if it is not private, you often have to have a permit. In Norway a permit is unheard of, and we don’t pay anything to enter National parks.
- You have to have knowledge about who owns the wilderness you want to enter. You don’t have to check anything in Norway. If it is wilderness, you can use it.

Could this work in the US? Would anyone here on White blaze want this system?

One thing I forgot to mention is that I totally agree that the permit system and pay systems we have here in the US for parks is something I totally hate and in that area, I would very much like to see us more like Norway.

[rafe]

I've camped and walked in several countries in Europe. Different attitude toward land ownership there. Different outlook about property and government as well.

England must have some sort of law(s) similar in effect to what Oslohiker describes. Which is to say, landowners need to tolerate foot traffic over the margins of their lands.

My wife and I have walked portions of The Coastal Path, a 630 mile path in southern England, along the coast of Cornwall and Devon. It's gorgeous. Anyone can walk it. And they do.

[Pedaling Fool]

BTW, for all on here that don't understand the concept of property ownership and want this law here in the U.S., keep in mind this goes way beyond simply walking across a tract of land. It would mean that horses and bikes have a right to the AT.

[Traveler]

BTW, for all on here that don't understand the concept of property ownership and want this law here in the U.S., keep in mind this goes way beyond simply walking across a tract of land. It would mean that horses and bikes have a right to the AT.

How would private property laws affect Congressional designation and protection of the AT as a footpath?

[Pedaling Fool]

How would private property laws affect Congressional designation and protection of the AT as a footpath?

From the little reading I've done already, this law doesn't just apply to private property.

http://www.miljodirektoratet.no/en/A...-Roam/Cycling/

You can ride your bike wherever there is a right of public access. You may also cycle across fenced land on private roads and established paths leading to open country, although organized groups and commercial users are not allowed to do so. Just be sure that the road, path or terrain you are using is suitable for cycle traffic. Some greenbelt land, recreational areas and nature reserves may have special rules or even a complete ban on cycling. Check whether there are designated cycle routes and a cycling map of the area

That's Freedom to Roam, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean we have to adopt the law verbatim, so are we simply talking about allowing people to walk across private land or Freedom to Roam? I'm talking about the entire law.

[Pedaling Fool]

BTW, not all is peachy in Norway with this law, proving once again that it's seldom greener on the other side of the hill. Apparently some tourists taking advantage of the Freedom to Roam law

Interesting reading: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2015/07/...-wild-camping/

[35king]

The problem is, people are ********.. We've all encountered them and they don't give a **** about anything or anyone. They're selfish and destroy things for no good reason. This is why we object so imminently against freedom to roam. We bust our chops at jobs we hate to afford the little we have and we wouldn't risk it for the chance that one of these ******** roams into our land and wrecks what we have worked so hard to earn. If everyone had common courtesy and respected each other and their property or nature for that matter, we wouldn't be so worried about freedom to roam.

[Connie]

Wow.

Here, the oxHunt app map for this state shows private property, that allows hunting and fishing.

There is no reasonable place to walk, in town, that isn't concrete or blacktop.

I looked at the map, inquired: now, I walk along the river corridor, and, I have found hikes that go thru private property. I asked, or wrote by using the private property information provided.

I said, I see you allow hunting and fishing. Is it okay to hike thru your property to put together a reasonably long hike. I will close gates.

I put more recreational land for hiking than the entire land area of Norway, Germany, Turkey and Egypt in my post to the thread on this page.

I only took first page results of a Google search.

We need to do more?

I think the people who criticise are not looking into this, at all.

Please stay on the crowded corridors of the AT. There someone else will blaze the trail for you.

My website lists long trails, but don't look. You might like those long trails.

http://www.ultralightbackpackingonline.com/links1.html

[rafe]

I like this verse in the original version of "This Land is Your Land" --

As I went walking I saw a sign there
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.

http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/This_Land.htm