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Thread: Discussing Maps

  1. #21

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    I just got back from a trip to an island I hadn't been to before.
    I like to explore new places.
    In the old days, I'd try to find a map.
    Usually they were pretty bad.
    Now, I used the GPS on my phone and it showed every little road.
    I highly doubt there's a paper map that would show them all.
    I know some roads near the AT in PA that aren't on a map.

    So, get used to it guys.
    Maps will become obsolete in another generation. IMO.

    GPS not only shows all the little roads, sometimes trails too and more importantly, shows you where you are on it. (unlike maps where you have to guess)
    So, say goodbye to the paper ones and if you are in the map printing business, look for another job.

    By the way, my GPS also showed me where each air plane was going from and to, and when my kid asked me what planet that bright star was, it took me about one minute to tell him it was Mars. All through the GPS.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlehead View Post
    So, say goodbye to the paper ones and if you are in the map printing business, look for another job.
    oh the humanity!

  3. #23
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    To me an interesting development is the Avenza PDF Maps app. You can use it to see a "you are here" dot on a curated map (if available as a geospatial PDF, many are now, often for free), even if you're not currently in coverage (if you downloaded the map when you were), but you can also switch to Google Maps or Earth (if you happen to be in coverage). I believe newer NYNJTC maps, even of the A.T., are available this way. PATC, maybe out of their general mandarin-ness, has similar capabilites but in its own app, for the A.T. maps in its coverage area. Battery life for the day hiker, maybe even the weekender, is solved by putting the i or And device into airplane mode but the dot still appears.

    About ten years ago I began developing a map series for printing, on an "other trail" that was its first foray into color maps. They used to be, honestly clearer than, but otherwise similar to the old A.T. maps (black line on B&W topo) that Bill Bryson famously complained about back in '98. I raised the question "why are we printing paper maps?" then, and was told they still wanted them. We just had this conversation again over winter 2016, and surprised to find the same result for doing a re-print of those maps. That especially shocked me, as the area is now duplicate covered by a series of trail maps prepared by a very talented cartographer and more widely available than the organization's maps. Smh.

  4. #24
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
    To me an interesting development is the Avenza PDF Maps app. h.
    It is a cool app for "open source maps" J Ley uses it for his popular CDT map set. Lots of other maps, too.

    As AK said, open source maps are where we are headed. The popular CalTopo site is going that way, too.

    Here's the URL for those curious https://www.pdf-maps.com/

    And a peek at the maps... https://www.pdf-maps.com/maps/
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    It is a cool app for "open source maps" J Ley uses it for his popular CDT map set. Lots of other maps, too.

    As AK said, open source maps are where we are headed. The popular CalTopo site is going that way, too.

    Here's the URL for those curious https://www.pdf-maps.com/

    And a peek at the maps... https://www.pdf-maps.com/maps/
    Rather than Avenza PDF Maps (which I use for the NYNJTC maps, that come out in that format), I use Backcountry Navigator. I like the features a little bit better. It can use sources like ArcGIS, CalTopo, Google and Bing as well, if it's got a network connection, and there are a lot of map packages that you can buy for it.

    There will always be a place for curated maps, but the curators need a place to start from. That's where the open source maps shine - in providing data. A good cartographer can add a lot of value atop that, and a well-done map is worth paying for - for the usability.

    There are a lot of people who are afraid of open source - think of schoolteachers who forbid consulting Wikipedia (rather than trying to teach research skills - an encyclopaedia is a starting point, not an ending point). People of that mindset tend to say, "the topos are from the government, they must be better" or "DeLorme wouldn't put its reputation on the line with a bad map, but who knows where the open source data came from?" In practice, though, that doesn't seem to be how it's sorting out. Nobody has the budget to survey the terrain, so everybody - even the government and the publishers like DeLorme or NatGeo - depends on the open-source data.

    I routinely grab GPS tracks for my own use - I might want to go back there someday, after all, and I give them to my friends - they might want to go where I went. The easiest way to give them to my friends is to send them to OpenStreetMap.org, where they'll see not only my tracks but those of a lot of other people. (And to reprocess OpenStreetMap data into a form more useful for hikers with GPS - which is where http://kbk.is-a-geek.net/catskills/t...=-73.1635&z=14 comes from.)

    I sometimes worry that I'm starting to offer open-source competiton for the trail clubs, who see selling maps as a profit center. But it's hard to have it both ways. Then I say to myself, "they're free to use my data, and I can see that they do." Hopefully, that's giving back enough to make up for whatever indirect harm I'm doing them I know that they'd rather I share the tracks with just them, but that's not how I roll. Besides, I do a lot of small stuff like http://kbk.is-a-geek.net/catskills/t...=-74.0341&z=15 that nobody would bother to map otherwise. But I've been thanked for that one by some Mariaville fire fighters, who have printed off a bunch of copies of that part of the map. (They're in there all too often. People come from town for a nice walk in the park, without realizing that it's relatively undeveloped, and fall into the canyon there.)

    Please, if you're a GPS user, consider contributing your data to OpenStreetMap. Anything from correcting a trail alignment to mapping your neighborhood. Something as small as a stroll through your neighborhood simply waypointing the locations of all the fire hydrants and putting them on the map might save someone's life someday.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlehead View Post
    I just got back from a trip to an island I hadn't been to before.
    I like to explore new places.
    In the old days, I'd try to find a map.
    Usually they were pretty bad.
    Now, I used the GPS on my phone and it showed every little road.
    I highly doubt there's a paper map that would show them all.
    I know some roads near the AT in PA that aren't on a map.

    So, get used to it guys.
    Maps will become obsolete in another generation. IMO.

    GPS not only shows all the little roads, sometimes trails too and more importantly, shows you where you are on it. (unlike maps where you have to guess)
    So, say goodbye to the paper ones and if you are in the map printing business, look for another job.

    By the way, my GPS also showed me where each air plane was going from and to, and when my kid asked me what planet that bright star was, it took me about one minute to tell him it was Mars. All through the GPS.

    Nah. GPS reception isn't everywhere nor is an portable compact unlimited power source. Some situations still require maps. GPS of some places, like a small to med sized more remote or yet underdeveloped island, where good paper mapping demand is not the norm and many situations does however have it over paper maps.

  7. #27

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    GPS and paper maps don't have to be thought of as an either/or proposition. While one can be perceived as better than the other under various scenarios/situations it can also be approached as two possibly complimentary approaches BOTH having major usefulness.

  8. #28
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Maps aren't going away. How we make use of them is changing, however (electronic vs paper, open source vs. govt or commercial )
    Paul "Mags" Magnanti
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  9. #29
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    I appreciate the reminder about OpenStreetMap. I had not been on there for a while. There is a high density of trail info near State College, PA, but far less in Tioga County, PA, as examples.

  10. #30

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    When I think of some of the situations I've been in with maps and trying to figure out where exactly I was:
    in dense fog in France, using a map that was based on the Paris meridian ('99 Pyrenees HRP hike)
    in Nepal with a map that had a 32,000/1 ratio and had the wrong spellings of towns/rivers/mountains,etc. Dhampus peak ('94)
    on the AT in the Smokies when I thought I got off trail on the east side, but in reality I had gone off on the west. (ok was just learning back then in '77)
    in Thailand with maps using Thai writing only (2000-2007)

    No thanks.

    I'll stick to my GPS.

    By the way, my $400 map set that I bought for the CDT has now been used 5 times and is literally falling apart.

    Designed a hiking trail here in Phuket that is close to 100 miles of jungle trekking.
    If you saw the maps that are available, you would not even go into the jungle. (I have NEVER found a topo map of Phuket, except on my phone)
    took me 6 years of working closely with Google earth and my Garmin 60CSX

    That was in the 'old days" when tree cover would block the signal.
    That doesn't seem to happen anymore.
    When it did, I looked for a clearer view of the sky.

    Dogwood, where aren't you getting signal?
    I haven't had that problem for the last 4 or 5 years now.

    Of course when the Gulf war started, they messed with the signal and it was off a few hundred meters.
    But that was a while ago too.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
    I appreciate the reminder about OpenStreetMap. I had not been on there for a while. There is a high density of trail info near State College, PA, but far less in Tioga County, PA, as examples.
    Sounds as if you've identified a project, then! Get a bunch of mappers together and have a Tioga party? (Tioga! Tioga!)
    Last edited by Another Kevin; 04-07-2016 at 18:29.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlehead View Post
    Dogwood, where aren't you getting signal?
    I haven't had that problem for the last 4 or 5 years now.

    Of course when the Gulf war started, they messed with the signal and it was off a few hundred meters.
    But that was a while ago too.
    Some users - I don't know if Dogwood is among them and don't want to insult him if he is better informed - confuse GPS availability with the fact that many smartphone applications also need a cellular network connection. (And some, like Backcountry Navigator or Avenza PDF Maps, do not, or at least have useful functionailty without one.) But I've certainly had the signal go wonky on me, particularly if I'm down in a deep reëntrant on a north-facing slope, where rock blocks most of the view of the sky. (Of course, when I've been in that situation, I've known exactly where I am: for example, "I'm in the ravine of the Plotter Kill." But that's not useful when the purpose of the trip was to gather GPS tracks for a trail map.)

    The interesting thing was that a day or two into the Gulf War, they stopped dithering the GPS signal. They found that the military was using a lot of civilian-grade GPS gear and that the advantage to our fighting forces of having a clean GPS signal was greater than the advantage to our enemies of having it. They've not dithered it since.
    Last edited by Another Kevin; 04-07-2016 at 18:27.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    Rather than Avenza PDF Maps (which I use for the NYNJTC maps, that come out in that format), I use Backcountry Navigator. I like the features a little bit better. It can use sources like ArcGIS, CalTopo, Google and Bing as well, if it's got a network connection, and there are a lot of map packages that you can buy for it.
    So is the advantage of Backcountry Navigator that it will load vector data directly on your choice of basemap?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
    So is the advantage of Backcountry Navigator that it will load vector data directly on your choice of basemap?
    It will do that, yes. It also has a decent UI for stroking out a rectangle of your basemap and loading that to your device at all resolutions, so that you can preload the part you need before you leave. That's great for a weekender and short-sectioner like me.

    It also doesn't have very many restrictions on third-party basemaps. I can use my own basemap with it. Some of the other apps constrain me to a list of preselected ones and don't let me make my own.

    And I don't have a lot of experience with these things. I started using BCN a few years and at least two phones ago, found it pretty much did what I wanted, and stopped looking. There may be something else wonderful out there.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  15. #35

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    Dogwood, where aren't you getting signal?

    I must be in Phuketville.

    what island were you on recently? - near sumatra, phillipines, malayasia, Nicobars.?

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlehead View Post
    I just got back from a trip to an island I hadn't been to before.
    I like to explore new places.
    In the old days, I'd try to find a map.
    Usually they were pretty bad.
    Now, I used the GPS on my phone and it showed every little road.
    I highly doubt there's a paper map that would show them all.
    I know some roads near the AT in PA that aren't on a map.

    So, get used to it guys.
    Maps will become obsolete in another generation. IMO.

    GPS not only shows all the little roads, sometimes trails too and more importantly, shows you where you are on it. (unlike maps where you have to guess)
    So, say goodbye to the paper ones and if you are in the map printing business, look for another job.

    By the way, my GPS also showed me where each air plane was going from and to, and when my kid asked me what planet that bright star was, it took me about one minute to tell him it was Mars. All through the GPS.
    Maps have been around for a very long time, as have compasses. If one has to guess where they are on a map it's not the maps fault. The GPS map will likely be more detailed than the 1962 sectional from the USGS, but its still a map. Mags has an excellent point, maps will always be around, how we use or access them changes as our technology does.

  17. #37
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    Absolutely! A map and compass tell me where to go. GPS tells me where I've been. Terrain recognition is the part of hiking I do enjoy a lot. Awareness of Ridges keeps your mind fresh.

  18. #38

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    There was a time in history when only the higher orders had access to navigational devices and maps, now any schlep can buy a $0.10 compass and spit on it when the direction they want to go is on the map at home.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    There was a time in history when only the higher orders had access to navigational devices and maps, now any schlep can buy a $0.10 compass and spit on it when the direction they want to go is on the map at home.
    oops...on the map they left at home.

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