Bottom layers? What to wear - feedback requested

[damskipi]

I went on a shakedown hike yesterday and was mostly satisfied with my gear. However, I discovered that I do not like hiking longer distances in my convertible pants. The zippers rubbed against my leg just slightly and over 8 miles it became annoying. Also, when I sat down the ends of the zippers would poke my legs. So the convertibles will be relegated to travel pants from now on. I'm looking for recommendations to replace them. I have a plan in mind but would appreciate a sanity check from others since I am new to backpacking. Saving weight wouldn't be a terrible thing either.

Old method: convertible zip off pants (13.3 oz) plus carry baselayer pants (3.1 oz) in case I got cold = 16.4 oz
New method?: baselayer pants (3.1 oz) under shorts (3 oz) plus carry wind pants (3 oz) in case I get cold = 9.1 oz

My questions are:
- will this method be warm enough for 3-season hiking? I am always cold - shorts alone won't work unless it's 80+ deg. I will also carry a 2nd baselayer for sleeping that could be used in an emergency
- how durable are wind pants? I'm looking at the Columbia Flash Wind Pants but am open to other suggestions

Note that I have a rain kilt for wet conditions, so I don't necessarily need rain pants.

TIA!

[The Cleaner]

For the colder winter months,I wear softshell pants such as Patagonia Guide pants or Marmot Scree pants.The softshell material breathes well and blocks 99% of the wind which keeps you warmer.Also a hooded softshell top works and breathes better than wearing a rain shell.I have the Patagonia Houdini wind pants but they are really only warm enough for 3 season use even over lightweight baselayer bottoms.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I carry a pair of shorts and a pair of long pants. Often I'll start the day with long pants and change mid-morning, and then change again once in camp for the evening. No big deal. Like you, the leg zippers and the way the fabric is cut in the legs annoys me, whether the legs are zipped on or off. I've noticed that the cut of the material in the legs for convertible pants differs from that of made to purpose shorts and long pants. Convertible pants tend to be too narrow where the leg zippers are located and rub on the top of the thigh. I've tried several brands - Mountain Hardwear, North Face, LLBean, EMS, etc and they all have the same issues. I returned all of them. It's one of those "stuff designed to do two things rarely do either well", situations. So I just deal with the small weight penalty of a few extra ounces.

[illabelle]

I've quit wearing my convertible pants. Same issue with the zippers. It's funny how the little things become a big deal when they affect every step you take. I wear long pants only when it's really cold. Even if it's chilly in the morning, if I expect it to warm up, I'll go ahead and start out in shorts. For a while I wore some longish knit shorts that fit close to my skin, so no slack fabric to chafe against. On those days when it's cold and it's gonna stay cold, my current favorite is a pair of hot pink long johns (or yoga pants? I'm not smart enough to know the difference), either by themselves, or under shorts if I'm feeling self-conscious. If it's wet out, I'll wear my rain/wind pants.

[map man]

How about a pair of nylon hiking pants that are not convertibles? Since you are not comfortable in just shorts unless it's over 80 degrees I would skip the shorts and just wear the trousers. Nylon pants breathe well and provide tick protection, especially if you tuck them into your socks. I know everyone is different but I wear nylon pants even when temps are in the 80s and 90s and don't feel like I overheat. And if it's in the 30s and 40s in camp during the evenings and mornings I'm still ok with just the nylon pants as long as I have enough layers on my torso to keep warm (and light hat and gloves).

[damskipi]

Thanks everybody! I'll look into finding a pair of non-convertible nylon pants. I see a few online that might work but if anybody has specific recommendations, I'd appreciate it.

[TexasBob]

Thanks everybody! I'll look into finding a pair of non-convertible nylon pants. I see a few online that might work but if anybody has specific recommendations, I'd appreciate it.

I recently got a pair of "White Sierra Rocky Ridge 2" pants and they seem well made, are comfortable and not too pricey.

[Venchka]

I didn't read any of the above so as not to alter my personal opinion.
"Bottom Layer". My old brain took that to mean: Next to skin layer. My choice, if it is cold enough for multiple layers from the skin out is SILK. I currently have silk long johns and a full head (to my neck) silk ski mask. I need a silk top and gloves.
How far off was I. Way far probably. No worries.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[Dogwood]

I used to have issue about where and how the the leg zippers felt on convertible pants as you said you do. I've had so many different brands and models of convertible pants I've lost count. Off the top of my head I currently have two different models Ex Officio, a Columbia, a TNF, and a REI.



Just as it is with denim jeans there are different cut convertible pants. All convertible pant leg zippers don't fall in the same place either. When I buy my convertibles I try them with the legs zipped on to see where the zips land to make sure it's in a comfortable place. I also demo them for length when in the shorts mode. Personally, I don't like long inseams/long shorts. I also tend to buy my convertibles to fit a little on the loose side especially in the thigh area where the zips lie. I don't want constricting shorts in the seat or where the zips lie. All my convertibles have a 1/2" or so fabric flap, like a sleeping bag stiffener, that covers over the zip so you don't feel the zip. I used to sometimes throw my convertible pants on in a hurried fashion where that flap wasn't flattened like it should so I felt the zipper. You'll immediately know it in cold winds or when your thighs have a long scratch on them or you have a sunburn or poison ivy. Been there.



Before I learned all this I would wear lycra or similar material compression shorts that barely extended past the length of where my convertible pant leg's zips laid.


Personally, I've never done the wind pants thing as to me it's too much for specialized uses. If I need wind pants my GoLite Tumalo rainpants at 4 oz w/ Pertex Shield DS or Montbell Versalite rainpants w/ MB's Super Hydro Breeze at 4 oz breathe well enough to satisfy as wind pants. I ask myself how often do I really need dedicated wind pants. If it's that cold I need to block wind it is usually OK for some type of light wt pants or for done in a day fast paced summit bids, etc light wt tights do the job too. O


One other system I've used is bringing along one of those rain pant options for really inclement weather, nylon running shorts for warmer days and when anticipating a faster paced day, and silk wt 3 oz bottom halves that can be matched to go under the nylon running shorts or under the rain pants.

I'm like Mapman, in that I'm wondering why you're taking along convertibles at all since you said "I am always cold - shorts alone won't work unless it's 80+ deg." Just hike in nylon pants in the cool weather.

[Feral Bill]

I just got back from and afternoon of snowshoeing in Scree Pants over Smartwool long johns. Very comfortable, as usual. Add a pair of light shorts and you're ready for anything much above 0 Fahrenheit.

[egilbe]

Try railriders weatherpants. Mine re pretty well made. I have a couple pair of tnf convertiblr pants and I never notived the zippers, but i have long legs and the zipper is above my knees. I like the fact that if i get warm, i can half unzip the pants for some added ventilation.

[aka.cyberman]

Long Underwear with Baggies Shorts and Gaiters and / or Gore-Tex Rain Shell Pants

[damskipi]

I'm like Mapman, in that I'm wondering why you're taking along convertibles at all since you said "I am always cold - shorts alone won't work unless it's 80+ deg." Just hike in nylon pants in the cool weather.

Good question - where I hike daily temperature swings of 30 degrees in the spring/summer are not unusual. I'm looking for a plan that will work when it's 60-70 deg at 7am and 90-100 deg by 3pm. So I need either convertibles, or layering, or wearing full pants until it warms up and then switching to shorts in the afternoon. I have no allegiance to any particular method. Everybody here has given me a lot of ideas so I'll probably order a few things and see what works best

[lonehiker]

My bottom layer is comprised of 4 items and has worked well for me from early spring into late fall. Silk bottoms (sleep in them but primarily just to keep sleeping bag cleaner. Have never had to, but could be used for hiking if very cold.). Nylon pants (worn exclusively in everything from cold to hot temps. Helps with sun and bugs.). Underwear (various types over the years). Rain kilt (prefer it over rain pants as I find that it is much easier to put on and take off). Except for switching to the rain kilt from rain pants, I have used this basic setup for 25+ years. There really isn't anything too glamorous going on in the bottom layer world. I mean it comes down to pants or shorts and what type of wicking fabric you want your underwear to be.... I guess if you don't take an adequate sleeping bag/quilt you might have to worry about a heavier sleeping layer....

[Dogwood]

Good question - where I hike daily temperature swings of 30 degrees in the spring/summer are not unusual. I'm looking for a plan that will work when it's 60-70 deg at 7am and 90-100 deg by 3pm. So I need either convertibles, or layering, or wearing full pants until it warms up and then switching to shorts in the afternoon. I have no allegiance to any particular method...

We're finally getting a better picture!

Let me remind you that you also said,

...Saving weight wouldn't be a terrible thing either....I am always cold - shorts alone won't work unless it's 80+ deg...

For you to be "always cold" in 30* temp swings even of 60* morning lows to 90* afternoon highs I'm here to tell you it's not just due to wearing shorts or not! These are temps IMHO most hikers would find ideal for wearing shorts. Something else isn't being communicated or accounted for! Bluntly put, you need to learn how to better thermoregulate ie; a big word but don't be intimidated by it as it just means managing your body temps.


And understand this, gear or specifically your apparel is one way, an important way, but never the less NOT THE ONLY way of effectively managing your bodies temps. For example, my trail diet and sleep patterns factor into my ability to manage my body temps. Also, notice I said temps as body temps can vary from place to place with possibilities of feet being icy cold while torso is sweaty warm, etc.

Like I said on this recent thread, http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...re-you-wearing, maintaining warmth and thermoregulating appropriately is 85% about keeping the core and extremities comfy. I'd be tweaking my apparel and noticeable of slightly adjusting my energy expenditure to regulate my body temps as needed...If I can manage my extremity(hands, feet, head) and core warmth I can typically hike in shorts from 40-90* in a variety of conditions.

Here's what I'd generally have along to thermoregulate on a 40*-90* hike: Note: this is 20* or greater of a lower temp extreme than you are accustomed:


I'd have available or be wearing a light wt vest(Pat Nano Puff, latest version MB Thermawrap, TNF Thermoball, etc) and/or light/mid wt long sleeve w/ deep chest zip(Smartwool, Ice breaker, Ibex, Pat Cap 1) and a very UL 2.5 L eVent or Pertex rain/wind jacket or MB Tachyon Jacket.


ALL for CORE WARMTH. Core warmth is critical. It's where a concentration of the organs are located.


Likely have along a light wt Turtle Fur alpaca/merino beanie and silk wt nylon running gloves.


ALL for extremity warmth. I did leave out warm and preferably dry feet. Don't ignore the heat loss from extremities especially the top of the head! The act of putting on a light wt merino beanie or light wt nylon running gloves, putting up a hood on a wind/rain jacket, putting my hands into my pants' or jacket pockets can warm me up sufficiently enough even in many 40* conditions. Changing into dry socks warms me up. Not stopping for such long periods maintains my warmth. If I do stop for much more than a few mins on goes a vest, jacket, beanie, etc. Constantly noshing/grazing on the go every hr or so in small bites/handfuls of trail mix, etc to keep up my energy and hence also my warmth keeps me warm. My trail food on average is aimed at 120 + cal/oz rather high in "good" fats and long burning complex carbs. Metabolism plays a role in maintaining a comfortable core temp. And, all this can be reversed too to cool down.


As I said, it's a constant awareness managing temps and tweaking gear, behavior, etc commensurate with the goal of managing temps. I've done it so long I don't even think about it very much. I do it out of habit. You can do it too!


IMO, it's better to proactively aim at maintaining a comfortable body temp(s) range rather than ignoring temps to the pt I get overly cold, hot, overheated, etc. ie; I'm adjusting things when I need by being aware of thermoregulating.


Bottom half would be shorts but could be convertibles with the legs zipped off. If no convertibles and only nylon running shorts are taken I'd throw in silk wt synthetic bottom halfs under the running shorts to hike in after dark.

I'd mostly be constantly on the move with limited duration breaks, 15 mins or less. I'd be tweaking my apparel and noticeable of slightly adjusting my energy expenditure to regulate my body temps as needed which plays into my caloric/total nutritional needs. It's 85% about keeping the core and extremities comfy.

Read this thread to see what others are doing at 40* or, if you like, this thread where the OP asked what people are wearing at 0*, 2o*, and 60*.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...re-you-wearing

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...ring-0*-20*-60*


Here's some more info on the topic John Abela graciously put together too that could help. http://hikelighter.com/tag/thermoregulation/

[Venchka]

Good grief. I really missed the mark. However, I stand by my endorsement of silk next to the skin. In fact, you might benefit from a layer of silk all the time.
Cold until it gets to 80 degrees? Never heard of such a thing. You have my sympathy. Tour 30 degree swings from 70 degrees to 100 degrees is not comfortable hiking weather for me. That's one reason why I prefer to go to the Rockies during the 6 weeks from late August to early October. Much of that has to do with living on the Gulf Coast most of life where it is either Almost Summer or Brutal Punishment Summer. By the end of August I need a break from the punishment called summer.
What I do when it's 30 degrees or less at dawn and 70 something in the afternoon:
I sleep in a pair of running shorts and micro fleece long pants with zippers at the cuff. That combination keeps my legs warm in the morning while I'm making breakfast and packing up. Depending on whether the temperature is over or under 30 degrees, I will either take off the fleece pants before hiking or sometime during the morning at a rest stop. The short zippers at the cuff means I don't have to remove my boots to get out of the pants. As long as the sun is shining I can hike in shorts all day.
Maybe you aren't working hard enough on the trail to warm up? Or you have a circulation problem? Or you don't spend enough time on the trail to give your internal thermostat time to switch from hot to medium weather?
Frankly, I prefer not to go backpacking when the weather is above the 70s. Too hot.

Give silk a try. It is virtually weightless and warmer than you think without being unbearable when it is hot. My other favorite for next to skin coverage is Helly Hansen Lifa base layers, top & bottom. Slightly heavier than silk and also slightly warmer. They are especially nice when bike riding as they are more windproof than I expected for such a light layer. Silk or Lifa long pants and running shorts might be an all day solution.

Obviously, we are all different. Good luck in the shopping.

Wayne

[damskipi]

Good grief. I really missed the mark. However, I stand by my endorsement of silk next to the skin. In fact, you might benefit from a layer of silk all the time.
Cold until it gets to 80 degrees? Never heard of such a thing. You have my sympathy....Much of that has to do with living on the Gulf Coast most of life where it is either Almost Summer or Brutal Punishment Summer. By the end of August I need a break from the punishment called summer.
...
Maybe you aren't working hard enough on the trail to warm up? Or you have a circulation problem?

Thanks, I'll look into silk. Yep, cold pretty much all the time. As in, it's 73 degrees in my house right now and I'm wearing jeans and a sweatshirt, loosely wrapped in a fleece blanket, and the only part of me that is warm is my leg because my dog is sleeping on it. I don't have a diagnosed circulation problem but my father does, and his mother did, and my sister does...I won't be surprised if I have one too. However I've always blamed my aversion to cold on being raised in the desert, so I have the opposite reasoning as you! Anything less than 80 degrees is cold and weird and unwelcome.

[Dogwood]

I bet you don't have your head covered.

Umm, there's your solution; hike with two dogs; sleep with one nestled on each side of you on a hike. Not exactly light wt though.

[Slo-go'en]

Dickie work pants. They have a fair cotton content which makes them a little heavy, but even so they dry out reasonably quickly with body heat. Their durable, they do a good job at blocking wind and keeping your legs warm. You can buy them almost anywhere and their not very expensive. Plus, if you get green pants and a matching shirt, you'll look like a Forest Ranger

I don't like hiking in shorts and like the OP, it has to be 80 and high humidity before I will bare my legs. I've switched to wearing nylon zip offs in the heat of the summer, but for spring and fall, the work pants do a good job.

[Heliotrope]

My current set up is nylon/spandex running shorts which I use as a base. Then I add Montbell Dynamo wind pants (2.6 oz) for cooler parts of the day. I'm not a shorts person in daily life but on the trail it feels great to have the flexibility when climbing steep terrain. So I often start and end the day with the wind pants. Like Dogwood says it helps to thermoregulate. I often do this by taking my smart wool beanie on and off., zipping my wind shirt up or down, or removing glove liners.

If it's cooler weather I use my momentum to keep warm and look for strategic rest stops. I stop in sunnier, drier and less windy locations and have warm layers to throw on in a pinch.


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