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  1. #1
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    Default CCF pads in the winter

    I am becoming increasingly frustrated trying to find ideal sleeping pads for winter use.

    Self-inflating mats like the Prolite are prone to the internal foam delaminating from the cover fabric and turning into a big bubble. A shame, because they are the most comfortable in my opinion. Are self-inflating mats that do not have vertical punchouts in the foam still subject to this problem? I was thinking about one of these two options:
    * Exped SIM Comfort Duo 7.5 (R-value of 6.4)
    * 2x Nemo Tuo 25L (R-value of approximately 7.0)

    Both of those options are quite heavy though at 7.5 pounds. Another consideration, though it is not sold in the USA so I'd have to jump through some hoops to get my hands on one, would be the Exped SIM Comfort Duo 5 (R-value of 4.6, weight of 5.25 pounds). Maybe not warm enough? The nice thing about the Nemo pads is that they would have redundancy if punctured.

    Blow-up mats are much more failure prone, with baffle failure, perforation development, valve failure, etc.

    Any sort of inflatable pad is prone to puncture, and some sort of failure seems inevitable after regular use for a while. I'd really prefer something foolproof. I also need something that will work in 0 degree temperatures. I also need wide pads of 25" width, to accommodate a 50" wide quilt.

    We are plenty comfortable using short RidgeRest Classic pads in the summer, and it is nice knowing that they will never fail. The problem with closed cell pads is twofold:
    1. Not a high enough R-value
    2. Very bulky

    The bulk is not so bad with short 20" wide SOLite pads - but with full-length 25" wide thicker Solar pads, it's significant. I am not sure how to reasonably carry two of these without them becoming a big nuisance. Or worse, 4 of the dang things in the winter to get enough warmth. On the other hand, they are not heavy, so maybe I can manage to strap them on to my pack somehow. Do people generally strap these outside of their rain covers (that's what I did with our short ones), or use larger rain covers which will contain the strapped-on pads?

    I found a Hyalite Classic CC pad which claims to have an R-value of 4.0 while being thinner than either of the RidgeRest models, so that would solve some of the bulk problem. Problem is, it is not available in a 25" width (and even the regular size is out of stock). Maybe there is somewhere I can order a basic flat CCF pad in a large size? Maybe even some option for different thicknesses / R-values?

    How much R-value do you really need in cold-weather camping? Does anyone use CCF pads exclusively in the winter? Will a RidgeRest Solar (R-value of 3.5) work alright if a very warm quilt is used on top? Does insulation under the legs matter as much or could I combine full-length pads with torso-length second layer pads? Two large RidgeRest Solar pads weigh 3.25 pounds which is half the weight (but also half the R-value) of the self-inflating options mentioned above.

    Another thought - what if I sewed a 1.1oz sil-nylon slipcover for the RidgeRest, which would trap air into its pockets...would this increase it's R-value?

    Or do I give up, and because they are light, carry noisy XTherm MAX pads, and include an extra one since they are light enough, for the inevitable time when one gets punctured and I can't manage to get the patch right in the field in the cold right away.

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    Came across the Alps Mountaineering Foam Mats which are available in a large size - no idea of their R-value or fitness for cold though...

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    Your numbers don't add up. 5.5 lbs, and the like.

    Please call 1-800- mattress (but leave off the last 's' for SAVINGS!!!)

    Yes that's what your post seems to indicate.

    (btw: sleeping mats should range in the 8 oz to 2 lb range for al practical US purposes*)

    * not including the US Antarctic polar base which may dictate a higher insulation factor.

  4. #4
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    Raptelan - I'm not sure what would make you comfortable but I can tell you what has made my wife and I comfortable for what it's worth.

    My wife uses a Neoair x-lite on a Z-lite and I just use the Z-lite. My wife sleeps cold and I sleep warm. Between the two of us we share a 20-degree rated Apex quilt I sewed. When it's really cold we crawl under the quilt with a small whole for our faces and less cold more of our head sticks out (a la Ray Jardine). This has kept us warm down to single digits on more than one occasion and plenty of nights in the teens and 20s. Plus, this system was used for all of the AT for me and half of the AT for my wife when she transitioned to the x-lite from the Z-lite. So durability seems to be fine (no patches for her yet).

    Hope that helps.
    2,000 miler. Still keepin' on keepin' on.

  5. #5
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    air or ground?

    What temp is cold?

    How often do you go?
    And if not that often why not bring the CCF you own (R2.5 ish) and couple it with a self inflator or air pad you like (R2-3) and have an R 4 or 5 pad.
    Many do as little as a 1/8" CCF with a neo-air for example into the 20's.

    I'm sure you've heard it before but... after a few weeks a good deal of the crinkle fades in the TR air pads... and hard to go wrong with an Xtherm. Or air pad plus CCF combo.

    Slip cover on the ridge rest is a no-go- you'd need something rigid to create an airspace... though a second pad would work somewhat.

  6. #6
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    Generally, an R-value of 5 is suggested for Winter. Of course, it depends on where you are going for Winter, too.

    I use a full length z-rest (Z-lite now I suppose) with a short Neo Air. Gives me the R value I need and the versatility I like. A foam pad is esp useful for outside of the shelter. I pack the foam pad on the outside of my pack.
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  7. #7
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Missed you saying zero above...
    R5-7 is ideal for that depending on how cold you sleep.

    While pad failures (especially in the neo-air line) are overblown IMO... the only foolproof pad is a hunk of foam... if you want foolproof and indestructible then you need to bite the bulky bullet.

    Unfortunately they don't sell the z-lite sol wider than 20".
    So for foamies only- two Ridgerest SOL @ R2.8 each 5.6 combined would be 2lbs 6 oz.
    You could likely trim at least one of them or shorten the length on both if you don't need the full 77" length. You could also taper them into a neo-air shape and get them down to 1lb each or so.

    If you had a larger volume pack, you could store one or both internally and stuff you gear into them (the old SUL internal frame pad trick).

    The Z pads definitely make the best sit pads though... so if you could deal with a 25" over a 20" you'd have a decent setup.

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    I've done plenty of happy winter camping with either two CF pads or one CF pad and an inflatable. It sounds like you've already got a CF pad you are happy with except for the warmth. So either add another CF pad to the back, top, or bottom of your pack (the bulk really is manageable if you aren't doing too much bushwacking. I generally carry one pad either verticle on the back of my pack or horizontal on the bottom of my pack and carry the second CF pad on the top, generally under the lid of the pack. Alternatively add either a summer or winter inflatable under your CF pad. That way, you are never without some insulation even if your inflatable springs a leak, and you are comfortable with the extra padding of the inflatable. The most highly touted inflatable I am aware of for winter camping the the Thermorest X-therm, which is even more R-value than I have ever used in combination with my CF pad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    Your numbers don't add up. 5.5 lbs, and the like.
    The weights are for two 25x77 rectangular pads.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    air or ground?
    Ground, in a 4-season tent.

    How often do you go?
    It will be for a thru-hike that is likely to extend into winter, as well as many weekend hikes in the meantime.

    And if not that often why not bring the CCF you own (R2.5 ish) and couple it with a self inflator or air pad you like (R2-3) and have an R 4 or 5 pad.
    That is what I am currently doing. We actually use the two short pads turned 90 degrees from normal and spanning both of our torsos, then put Prolites on top. However this is non-ideal for a few reasons:

    1. The CCF insulation is only under the torsos. Not sure how much this matters.
    2. The Prolites are tapered, so there is uninsulated ground at the feet. We use a single bag in quilt fashion over both of us in a 50" width. My thought is that the uninsulated ground will allow too much cold in under the quilt. Hence why I was seeking out rectangular self-inflating options like the Nemo and Exped options, as I don't think Therm-a-Rest makes one.
    3. I have read a lot of complaints about the Prolites delaminating after a few months of use. Cascade Designs is great about replacing them, but this is not a hassle I look forward to.

    I'm sure you've heard it before but... after a few weeks a good deal of the crinkle fades in the TR air pads... and hard to go wrong with an Xtherm. Or air pad plus CCF combo.
    I am not sure how much it fades, actually our first pads were XLites but we found them uncomfortable - air pads without foam are too thick and bouncy feeling... They are really light though (even the XTherm MAX), and get rave reviews, so are probably the best option for inflatable pads. We got a good deal on some Big Agnes Q-Core pads and found that design significantly more comfortable, however the problem with them is that they have a larger "rail" on the sides, making the middle of our "mattress" where the two pads join an uncomfortable surface.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    I've done plenty of happy winter camping with either two CF pads or one CF pad and an inflatable. It sounds like you've already got a CF pad you are happy with except for the warmth. So either add another CF pad to the back, top, or bottom of your pack (the bulk really is manageable if you aren't doing too much bushwacking. I generally carry one pad either verticle on the back of my pack or horizontal on the bottom of my pack and carry the second CF pad on the top, generally under the lid of the pack. Alternatively add either a summer or winter inflatable under your CF pad. That way, you are never without some insulation even if your inflatable springs a leak, and you are comfortable with the extra padding of the inflatable. The most highly touted inflatable I am aware of for winter camping the the Thermorest X-therm, which is even more R-value than I have ever used in combination with my CF pad.
    The main problem is bulk. My internal frame pack is large but not really well set up for lashing more stuff to, which at times makes me wonder if I shouldn't buy a Kelty Tioga 5500 (no idea if it would be comfortable for me though) or some other external frame. I have tried putting the pads inside the pack burrito style but it uses up a lot of the space requiring me to fully-extend the expandable top of my bag (which wouldn't be adequate for 25" wide pads) and does not leave me with adequate room in the pack. What I have done with the small pads is use some webbing to strap them to the back of my pack near the bottom horizontally - so that if I set my pack down on the ground, it is not on the pads. This also can work over the top of a rain cover, which is important as my current rain cover can't fit anything under it except the pack. That said, I have gotten a dry pack liner and a couple other dry bags for my gear, so may not need a rain cover at all. The two short pads roll up together and form a reasonable single roll, only 20" wide. The short pads won't cut it for winter use, and I'd need to carry two 25" pads, which are each about the same size of roll as the two short pads, but also 5" wider if attached in this fashion. In theory my wife might be able to carry one of the pads, but figuring out how to lash one to her child carrier will be a challenge. Probably easier to lash them both to the back of my pack, and to avoid the problem of the added width, might need to figure out how to lash them vertically. Using CCF exclusively seems to be the safest option (and I have no concern about the comfort) but 4 pads would be quite a challenge to figure out.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    I generally carry one pad either verticle on the back of my pack or horizontal on the bottom of my pack and carry the second CF pad on the top, generally under the lid of the pack. Alternatively add either a summer or winter inflatable under your CF pad. That way, you are never without some insulation even if your inflatable springs a leak, and you are comfortable with the extra padding of the inflatable. The most highly touted inflatable I am aware of for winter camping the the Thermorest X-therm, which is even more R-value than I have ever used in combination with my CF pad.
    2 questions how do you attach a pad vertically to your pack? Does it have daisy chains? My Osprey Atmos 65 does not seem to have places to attach vertically. and if I use a pack cover, horizontal is an issue. Second, I was thinking if I get a CF, it would go under the inflatable. What is reason for putting inflatable next to ground? Thanks in advance.

  13. #13
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Sorry, lol... your posts make more sense as a couple's sleep system. Stupid internet.

    So... two people. (big difference)
    You're both happy with short ridge rest pads in summer?
    Thus far you then turn them and put them together so you have a 48" wide x 40" long torso pad? (9 oz each and 18 oz total)
    Then you put two prolites over this but you find the gap in the middle concerning and you only have R5 at your torso, not full body.

    An extended thru... which means of the potential 180 days (6 months) you're likely only going to see zero... (never? 10 days) or you are planning an extended winter portion?

    What packs do you carry? Have you done/tried the typical UL trick of putting your pack under your feet and or using a pack with removable sit pad that you can use to make up a layer. Or using your packs to fill in that gap at the foot end of the tapered pads?

    It sounds like you need to take your summer rig, sort out ways to fill it out as a baselayer (packs, sit pads, ect.) then choose how best to add layers for the colder portions of the trip, yes? Unless you're doing a winter thru, why completely redo your gear when you can supplement it.

    A GG wide pad for example in 1/4" could be the second layer- http://gossamergear.com/thinlight-insulation-pads.html
    At 40 x 60 that would smooth out a double bed pretty well- and carried vertically wouldn't be horribly bulky. That's only about R 1 though at 1/4".
    So R2.8 in your "summer" pads, plus one wide pad puts you at 3.8 for the three season portion of your trip.
    Mail drop (or start with) a second GG wide pad to get you to R4.8... two bodies sharing that would be fine to the odd zero degree night. Especially if you make a sandwich of GG pads with the odd stuff in the center you might clear R.5.

    The plus side is this rig "breaks down" or builds up as needed during the changing seasons without breaking the bank or bulking up too horribly.

    The other option is to cut up a z-rest pad to make a nice combo sit pad and calf/heel pad. Doing a torso length pad from shoulder to butt, and then a second sit pad from calf to heel is a good hammock trick or SUL hiker one. The Zrest folds are 5" and it's 20" wide... so you can cut a 15x20 or 20x 20 and it still folds up well and keeps your calves and heels warm.

    If the GG sizes don't make sense or seem too short- http://www.foambymail.com/VA/polyeth...foam-roll.html
    They sell the foam off a 60" wide roll x however many lineal feet long you think you need. So you could make any size pad you wanted, and you could get 3/8" foam if you wanted more R value.

    In this case... making up a "pillow case" to hold everything together and serve as a sheet does make some sense for the cold side of things.
    http://ripstopbytheroll.com/collecti...-taffeta-nylon
    a 50x72 pillow case would take about 5.75 yards of fabric- roughly 4 ounces in this fabric... and you'd have a washable "sheet" that you could also use as a high summer sleeping bag for two.

  14. #14
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    The Neo-Air all-season is rectangular and comes in a large 25"x77". It can be cut down and resealed to any length you want. Walmart sells a foam pad of the same size, and some pad joiner kits from thermo-rest and you got a big rectangular mattress with a high R value.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    air or ground?

    What temp is cold?

    How often do you go?
    And if not that often why not bring the CCF you own (R2.5 ish) and couple it with a self inflator or air pad you like (R2-3) and have an R 4 or 5 pad.
    Many do as little as a 1/8" CCF with a neo-air for example into the 20's...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Generally, an R-value of 5 is suggested for Winter. Of course, it depends on where you are going for Winter, too.

    I use a full length z-rest (Z-lite now I suppose) with a short Neo Air. Gives me the R value I need and the versatility I like. A foam pad is esp useful for outside of the shelter. I pack the foam pad on the outside of my pack.
    This is what I'm currently doing down to minus 10-20*F. I have several different thickness and corresponding R Value CF pads I mix and match with my inflatables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy of PA View Post
    The Neo-Air all-season is rectangular and comes in a large 25"x77". It can be cut down and resealed to any length you want. Walmart sells a foam pad of the same size, and some pad joiner kits from thermo-rest and you got a big rectangular mattress with a high R value.
    Is there any advantage of the NeoAir All Season over the NeoAir XTherm MAX? Is it less noisy? More durable material?

    I don't need a pad joiner as I will be using a groundsheet which fits two 25" wide mattresses. Or I could remove the stitching down the center to accommodate a single 50" wide pad.

    Here are the specs from Cascade Designs' website:
    * All Season, Large: $180, R4.9, 25oz
    * XTherm MAX, Large: $230, R5.7, 23oz

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    An extended thru... which means of the potential 180 days (6 months) you're likely only going to see zero... (never? 10 days) or you are planning an extended winter portion?
    We will be hiking the AT southbound, and likely not moving at a fast pace, so by the time we reach Georgia, it is likely to be winter. Even if not, our plan is to keep hiking as long as affordable, perhaps turning around and heading back north or continuing the ECT farther south. It is likely we will be out all winter, just hard to say exactly where that will be. And this winter will be full of weekend overnight trips.

    What packs do you carry? Have you done/tried the typical UL trick of putting your pack under your feet and or using a pack with removable sit pad that you can use to make up a layer. Or using your packs to fill in that gap at the foot end of the tapered pads?
    Yes, we did that when we tried using short XLite pads, as due to the 3 inch dropoff, it was a necessity for comfort. I carry an 85L pack (Deuter Aircomfort Pro 70+15) with most of our gear, and my wife carries a child carrier (Deuter Kid Comfort III) with our son and all of his necessities.

    The plus side is this rig "breaks down" or builds up as needed during the changing seasons without breaking the bank or bulking up too horribly.
    A "layering" approach makes sense, though it may or may not be necessary (as far as I can tell, there is no downside to having "too much" insulation under you in warmer conditions). I appreciate the suggestions and will have to ponder them. The foambymail option is particularly interesting, though they don't publish an R-value for their foams so it is hard to say how well they would work...

    We really need 25" wide pads, or a single 50", though.

    The other option is to cut up a z-rest pad to make a nice combo sit pad and calf/heel pad. Doing a torso length pad from shoulder to butt, and then a second sit pad from calf to heel is a good hammock trick or SUL hiker one. The Zrest folds are 5" and it's 20" wide... so you can cut a 15x20 or 20x 20 and it still folds up well and keeps your calves and heels warm.
    We briefly tried Zlite pads and really didn't like them compared to the Thermarest. The rolled-up RidgeRest was easier to deal with than the folded Zlite, and had a better R-value. It seemed more durable but that may have been false perception. In any case, they don't make a 25" Zlite.

    In this case... making up a "pillow case" to hold everything together and serve as a sheet does make some sense for the cold side of things.
    We will be using a groundsheet (link above) which should be able to serve that purpose.

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    I have used ridgerest Solite with gossamer gear nightlite torso pad. I could feel heat radiating back against my back. It was toasty down around 28-30, but ground wasnt real cold. If I could stay on back comfortably all night Id still use that.

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    The combo that works well for me down to -10 F, usually on snow, is a 3/4 Ridgerest and a full length of Reflectix duct insulation. If you can use the end of a 25' roll that you buy (from Home Depot) for some household project, the cost is nil. The weight and bulk is practically nil. It only adds a small R value, but it's been enough for me. And the IR reflection component helps where it lacks in loft.
    "Throw a loaf of bread and a pound of tea in an old sack and jump over the back fence." John Muir on expedition planning

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    I find that I am fine with a long CCF pad and another short pad (either CCF or inflatable) to keep me warm in most winter conditions. My feet and lower legs are generally fine on just the single layer of CCF pad. I have found that putting the CCF pad on top of a 3-season inflatable pad is warmer than the other way around. I don't know why, but it is notably warmer with the CCF on top, at least at -10 to -15F.

    As for strapping a pad vertically on the back (front?) of the pack, you can run lines or straps (or elastic for that matter) across the back, either between daisy chains or between compression straps or other accessory loops. Some packs take a bit of creativity, but it often works well if you can get it figured out.

    Good luck
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