Why do we humans need to reduce the bear population?

[tdoczi]

Here we go again. Someone finds something objectionable and is unwilling to consider any opposing viewpoint. You might as well try to explain hiking the AT to a person who never steps off of manmade things. Some of us grew up eating our pets (pigs, chickens, ducks, beef critters, etc). Some of us had a big garden all their life. Some of us see GMO as a bigger issue than hunting. Some of us see hunting for food to be less objectionable than the mass production process of raising meat for slaughter. Some people rail against the former while eating the latter. Some people like to hear themselves talk and don't realize they are making a fool out of themselves. The chicken of the mass production farm is forced into a life of misery. I partridge faces a moment of misery. Both taste good. One is healthier than the other. The hunter is not an evil jerk for hunting down and killing a partridge. The chicken on the mass production farm wasn't coddled all its life. The partridge roamed free. If I was as ridiculous as the anti-hunter, I could go all batty and blame the world's ills on those that support the cruel treatment of chickens by buying chickens that come from mass production farms. That might actually have some merit. I will leave that to the vegan. Mean while, does anyone have some steak sauce to go with my steak and eggs?

since you missed it the first 12 times i said it- anyone who is hunting truly and solely as a food source is not who i am talking. got it?

now i assume your point is i shouldn't try to read intent. maybe so, but sometimes these things are fairly obvious. maybe this isn't one of them, but i doubt you go through life never reading intent in anyone's actions ever.

[runt13]

My 2 cents...on eating Bear.

Being an avid hunter, since 1974, as well as a lover of the AT, and a hiker. I will tell you this, everyone that I hunt with eats what they harvest. Case in point we had Bear steaks in Deer camp Monday night. And all agree its the best red meat there is, better then your best Beef steak! Way better then Venison. So as far as who eats Bear, I would say most people that harvest a Bear do.

RUNT ''13''

[rickb]

I have watched it all my life. Every time someone tinkers with a hunting policy in Maine the ignorant proclaim all kinds of wild scenarios. When we opened up moose hunting, the ignorant proclaimed that the population would decrease dramatically. The hunter knew better. The population went up. The weak and the stupid were culled. The wise and the hearty survived.

Not so much because the weak and stupid are culled, but rather because the vast majority of moose permits are for Bulls, I think.

That is a good way to manage the population for hunters, but not so good for the smart and strong Bulls, I think.

I don't have a problem with that, but I think your characterization is a bit disingenuous. Sort of like how they sold deer hunting in Massachusetts' Quabin reservoir some years ago as a necessary but perhaps unfortunate way to protect the watershed-- then issued permits for bucks only.

[rickb]

I sometimes wonder how hunting jives with the whole LNT mantra.

[Spit Walker]

I sometimes wonder how hunting jives with the whole LNT mantra.

HaHa take what you find and leave nothing behind.

[BirdBrain]

Not so much because the weak and stupid are culled, but rather because the vast majority of moose permits are for Bulls, I think.

That is a good way to manage the population for hunters, but not so good for the smart and strong Bulls, I think.

I don't have a problem with that, but I think your characterization is a bit disingenuous. Sort of like how they sold deer hunting in Massachusetts' Quabin reservoir some years ago as a necessary but perhaps unfortunate way to protect the watershed-- then issued permits for bucks only.

My characterization is not disingenuous. I started hunting in 1971. The ignorant tinkering by people that don't hunt is maddening (and bucks/bulls vs any is one of them). My larger point about bears is the pertinent one. We do all the evil stuff up here with no regard for male or female. It is working. This discussion is about bears. What we are doing works. What the ignorant would like us to do would turn us into any number of states that are having issues with bears. I would rather not argue antlered vs any (it is not males vs female, but the ignorant does not grasp that). I have strong opinions on that subject. Those opinions would just launch into other ignorant debates as well. I am tempted... but I will refrain.

[perdidochas]

and around the circle we go... do people not read threads and see that someone else already said this, thus provoking at least 5 back and forth messages about this theory?

I respond as I read. I don't read all, then go back and respond. Sorry, but that's how I've done with online forums since before the WWW.

[rickb]

My characterization is not disingenuous. I started hunting in 1971. The ignorant tinkering by people that don't hunt is maddening (and bucks/bulls vs any is one of them). My larger point about bears is the pertinent one. We do all the evil stuff up here with no regard for male or female. It is working. This discussion is about bears. What we are doing works. What the ignorant would like us to do would turn us into any number of states that are having issues with bears. I would rather not argue antlered vs any (it is not males vs female, but the ignorant does not grasp that). I have strong opinions on that subject. Those opinions would just launch into other ignorant debates as well. I am tempted... but I will refrain.

So the reason 3/4 of Maine moose permits are for antlered animals is that they are the weak and stupid?

[BirdBrain]

So the reason 3/4 of Maine moose permits are for antlered animals is that they are the weak and stupid?

Not going to bite.

Time to put another thread on ignore. People want to talk about everything except bears. The moose subject was only introduced to give an illustration of what happens to a hunted population. It was not introduced to debate every nuance of moose hunting rules.

[Uriah]

The ignorant tinkering by people that don't hunt is maddening...

As is the ignorant tinkering of the English language, but never mind that, for we are not grammar cops here.

My larger point about bears is the pertinent one. We do all the evil stuff up here with no regard for male or female. It is working. This discussion is about bears. What we are doing works.

But you cannot compare a remote and remotely populated state like Maine to a densely populated one like New Jersey, not with any semblance of relevancy anyhow. Sure, New Jersey has what we humans call a "bear problem," and Maine does not. But it's not because of the hunting Maine encourages. Rather it is the uninhibited habitat it provides. Run-ins with bears are fairly common when you live in THEIR habitat; Alaska taught me that. Just the same, run-ins increase when we push them into smaller tracts.

The larger issue (though not pertinent to this particular discussion) is When Humans Encroach. And what to do when we refuse to stop encroaching. Little by little, all else, all others, are being crammed into a corner. Your corner is still, for now, vast. I know, because I walked through some of it!

[Traveler]

Hunting doesn't seem to be working in NJ, which the bear population growth is compounded by some other factors. Bears coming in from surrounding states is one, reproductive rates are the highest in most States, but the most significant issue is the return of forested areas. Farmland that once pushed the black bear into remote areas away from populated areas has yielded to woodlands in many areas that has exacerbated the issue. That is a large contributing factor to other northeastern States as well. It seems counter intuitive when we want to think its people building into bear habitat is causing more contact when in actuality its the fallow farmlands returning to forests thats allowing for more bears.

I think a more regionalized approach will be needed before this is all done. Once bears reach a level of population the region cannot support, there will be famine and/or disease that will start to reduce their population. This will present a far greater danger to people as bears turn from fairly benign creatures wandering through woods and suburban landscapes to sick and/or starving creatures looking for food. I doubt if a hunting season alone will be an effective, long term solution for most of the northeast.

[Pedaling Fool]

yes i eat meat. yes i am aware some people find this immoral. those arent the only things i do that people find immoral. there are also immoral things that society deemed unacceptable decades ago (such as settling disputes via a duel) that had they not so decided, and as a consequence i was raised to agree with their decision, i might find myself engaging in today and wondering why anyone finds it immoral.

we need to dial this back to my original, relevant to this thread supposition- the opinion of hunters as to whether or not a hunt is necessary is, to my mind, irrelevant. it is irrelevant because they have ulterior motives, namely that they want to kill the animals in question for their own enjoyment, fulfillment, pleasure, pride, whatever you wish to call it, and any statements they make about how it is beneficial or necessary is possibly self serving. in this context, the question of what i or anyone else find moral isnt really relevant.

if any hunter wants to say "yes i enjoy killing animals and i dont find it immoral" then i will applaud their honesty while finding them possibly immoral and continue to ignore their opinion as to whether or not a bear hunt is necessary.

I do see it as necessary to hunt certain animals, including black bears, and will address that later, because I got some work to go do; however, I'll leave you with this youtube video of hunters releasing a deer from another dear that had their antlers entangled. If all they do hunting for is simply for the enjoyment/fufillment/pleasure/pride of KILLING, then why did they risk personal injury to release the deer? Your oversimplification and prejudice is annoying, to say the least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNSgr5xNYY0

[runt13]

History of Black Bears in New Jersey

The American black bear is native to New Jersey. Prior to European settlement black bears lived in forested regions throughout the state. As European settlement progressed, forests were cleared for towns, farming and lumber. Black bears were killed indiscriminately by settlers to protect their crops and livestock. Loss of habitat and indiscriminate killing caused the black bear population to sharply decline throughout the 1800s. In 1953, the New Jersey Fish and Game Council classified the black bear as a game animal, affording it protection from indiscriminate killing. Limited hunting was legal for black bear until 1971 when the Council, based on an assessment by Division of Fish and Wildlife (DFW) biologists, closed the hunting season. DFW biologists began conducting research on New Jersey's black bears in 1980. Over the last 35 years, the Garden State's black bear population has been increasing and expanding its range southward and eastward from the forested areas of northwestern New Jersey. The population has grown due to increased black bear habitat as agricultural land reverted to mature forests, protection afforded by game animal status, and bears dispersing into New Jersey from increasing populations in Pennsylvania and New York. Additionally, the state's black bears have some of the largest litters and highest reproductive rates in the nation. Today, black bears can be found throughout the state. Since 1980, the DFW has steadily increased its efforts to responsibly manage our large and expanding black bear population and to be responsive to the increasing conflicts between bears and people. Since Fiscal Year 2001, DFW has spent more than $9 million on black bear management. This includes $5.5 million of general treasury funds and $3.5 million from the Hunters and Anglers Fund and federal grants. The Comprehensive Black Bear Management Policy allowed for annual hunting seasons, to be evaluated after the 2014 season concludes.

NJ Bear Distribution/Sightings Click for maps 1995-2014

DFW's bear management strategy is an integrated approach that includes research and monitoring, non-lethal and lethal control of problem bears, public education on how to coexist with bears, enforcement of laws designed to reduce bear related conflicts, and bear population control.
In September, 2014, a fatal predatory black bear attack occured in West Milford, Passaic County, resulting in the death of a 22-year old male. It is the first documented bear fatality in New Jersey's history. Though extremely rare, such attacks have and do occur throughout black bear habitat in North America.

[tdoczi]

I do see it as necessary to hunt certain animals, including black bears, and will address that later, because I got some work to go do; however, I'll leave you with this youtube video of hunters releasing a deer from another dear that had their antlers entangled. If all they do hunting for is simply for the enjoyment/fufillment/pleasure/pride of KILLING, then why did they risk personal injury to release the deer? Your oversimplification and prejudice is annoying, to say the least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNSgr5xNYY0

don't know, you'd have to ask them.

all i know is this- if i were to go hunting with someone and immediately after they killed an animal i could get them to state one clear reason why they did it, what would it be? "because i wanted to eat it"? maybe, and good for them if so. "because i enjoy spending time outdoors with my son (father, cousin, friends, whoever)"? thats a complete non-sequitur. "because i wanted to see if i could outwit the animal"? ok, if you want, but do you have to kill it to outwit it? why not sneak up on it and take a really awesome picture?

my only conclusion, the only sensible conclusion i can even fathom is the answer is- "because i wanted to kill it."

some have expressed this tinge of sadness that comes with this, which just makes it all the more baffling. to profess a negative reaction to having done something you voluntarily sought to do and succeeded at doing, and which you have probably done before and will do again? thats just strange. i mean thats almost the talk of someone with an addiction.

[rocketsocks]

don't know, you'd have to ask them.

all i know is this- if i were to go hunting with someone and immediately after they killed an animal i could get them to state one clear reason why they did it, what would it be? "because i wanted to eat it"? maybe, and good for them if so. "because i enjoy spending time outdoors with my son (father, cousin, friends, whoever)"? thats a complete non-sequitur. "because i wanted to see if i could outwit the animal"? ok, if you want, but do you have to kill it to outwit it? why not sneak up on it and take a really awesome picture?

my only conclusion, the only sensible conclusion i can even fathom is the answer is- "because i wanted to kill it."

some have expressed this tinge of sadness that comes with this, which just makes it all the more baffling. to profess a negative reaction to having done something you voluntarily sought to do and succeeded at doing, and which you have probably done before and will do again? thats just strange. mean thats almost the talk of someone with an addiction.

the state of NJ refers to it as harvesting not killing, just like pumpkin. Run for office, change the laws. It should also be noted it is illegal to harass hunters while they are engaged in hunting, this includes yelling or making loud noises so as to allert animal to be harvested.

[bill1980]

Thank you, AT Traveler for gertting this off the hunting philosophy and back on the original question, and the same to runt13 for NJ history and data. One would think, after perusing all this, that the best solution to human/ black bear conflict in heavily populated but still forested states is to cull the herd so to speak, reagrdless of whether enjoyment results for some who do the hunting.

[TexasBob]

History of Black Bears in New Jersey

The American black bear is native to New Jersey. Prior to European settlement black bears lived in forested regions throughout the state. As European settlement progressed, forests were cleared for towns, farming and lumber. Black bears were killed indiscriminately by settlers to protect their crops and livestock. Loss of habitat and indiscriminate killing caused the black bear population to sharply decline throughout the 1800s. In 1953, the New Jersey Fish and Game Council classified the black bear as a game animal, affording it protection from indiscriminate killing. Limited hunting was legal for black bear until 1971 when the Council, based on an assessment by Division of Fish and Wildlife (DFW) biologists, closed the hunting season. DFW biologists began conducting research on New Jersey's black bears in 1980. Over the last 35 years, the Garden State's black bear population has been increasing and expanding its range southward and eastward from the forested areas of northwestern New Jersey. The population has grown due to increased black bear habitat as agricultural land reverted to mature forests, protection afforded by game animal status, and bears dispersing into New Jersey from increasing populations in Pennsylvania and New York. Additionally, the state's black bears have some of the largest litters and highest reproductive rates in the nation. Today, black bears can be found throughout the state. Since 1980, the DFW has steadily increased its efforts to responsibly manage our large and expanding black bear population and to be responsive to the increasing conflicts between bears and people. Since Fiscal Year 2001, DFW has spent more than $9 million on black bear management. This includes $5.5 million of general treasury funds and $3.5 million from the Hunters and Anglers Fund and federal grants. The Comprehensive Black Bear Management Policy allowed for annual hunting seasons, to be evaluated after the 2014 season concludes.

NJ Bear Distribution/Sightings Click for maps 1995-2014

DFW's bear management strategy is an integrated approach that includes research and monitoring, non-lethal and lethal control of problem bears, public education on how to coexist with bears, enforcement of laws designed to reduce bear related conflicts, and bear population control.
In September, 2014, a fatal predatory black bear attack occured in West Milford, Passaic County, resulting in the death of a 22-year old male. It is the first documented bear fatality in New Jersey's history. Though extremely rare, such attacks have and do occur throughout black bear habitat in North America.

Thanks for posting this. A good synopsis and the maps are really interesting.

[rocketsocks]

My 2 cents...on eating Bear.

Being an avid hunter, since 1974, as well as a lover of the AT, and a hiker. I will tell you this, everyone that I hunt with eats what they harvest. Case in point we had Bear steaks in Deer camp Monday night. And all agree its the best red meat there is, better then your best Beef steak! Way better then Venison. So as far as who eats Bear, I would say most people that harvest a Bear do.

RUNT ''13''

No way dude.

[Dogwood]

Mostly for Pedaling Fool. LOL. Easy does it Kimosabe. If you look back and read Arden's comments on HIS thread it certainly was clear he was making the apparent point that humans, individually and collectively, could use more critical thinking OF A WHOLE in regard to man's behavior as it has far reaching consequences for all life. So Natural Selection involving the aspect of cooperation, coexistence, and non self absorbed behavior is definitely tied into his comments. However, posters decided on taking his thread in the direction towards a debate about hunting in general.

[runt13]

When I go into the woods during legal hunting seasons, as a hunter..... yes! my intention is to kill whatever legal game I am pursuing. Be it a rabbit, squirrel, pheasant, grouse, deer or bear. I also want to be in the woods, see the wildlife, walk around and check out the scenery, smell the out of doors, and bond with whoever I am with. Then if we are fortunate enough to kill our pursued legal game, we will celebrate by cooking it and eating it. In my household we eat some kind of wild game / fish or fowl 5 out of 7 days. I take enjoyment out of the whole package. I chose to be a hunter, I love to hunt, and I am not ashamed of it.

So there I said it!

Now back to our regular scheduled bickering!

RUNT ''13''