2016 NEBO -- Questions

[Mr Liberty]

Hello all,

I'm looking at doing a NEBO on the Colorado Trail next summer (CT is the correct abbreviation, right?). Originally I planned on doing a SOBO on the AT, but life got in the way and I won't have enough time . After doing some research on other almost-as-long-distance trails (this page was very helpful [http://wp.me/P1P6bt-G]), I found the CT, which seems perfect for my purposes: it's short enough to do in less than 2 months, it's through terrain I'm somewhat familiar with (I did a long trek at Philmont in 2014, which is not too far from the southern portion of the CT), and it's easier to get to than the AT (just a train and a bus ride and you're there). That said, I have some questions I'm hoping y'all can help me with .

1. What are the pros/cons of different time slots for this hike? Are certain months too snowy at the higher altitudes? What is the rain usually like then?
2. What kind of guidebook or maps should I take? For the AT, you just take the AWOL guide... is there something similar for the CT? (Other than the app... Murphy's law and all that)
3. What's the recommended bear precautions for the area? Bear bags? How so? I've never backpacked solo in bear country...
4. Is 3L enough water capacity, or should I go for 4L? Or even 6L?
5. What kind of temperatures should I expect? Do I need to get a puffy, or am I ok with just a fleece?
6. What are some recommended side activities along the trail? Good peaks to grab, or towns to visit?
7. Does my gear list look good? It's pretty much identical to what I planned on bringing on the AT: Gear List [bit dot ly/1ILUqHI]

[MuddyWaters]

Www.pmags.com/colorado-trail-end-to-end-guide-2

[Mr Liberty]

Www.pmags.com/colorado-trail-end-to-end-guide-2

(Contrary to popular belief, I do read the stickied threads before posting.)


It seems I was not specific enough in my original questions. I'll elaborate below. Sorry

1. What are the characteristics of the months of June, July, August, and September: specifically for each of them, in regards to temperature, precipitation, and crowdedness on the trail, as of recently (like, this summer; the past year or two have had abnormal weather patterns). Since I will be going NEBO and I hike quickly, I can leave slightly later than other hikers; I would like some specific information regarding these 4 months so I can decide which season would best suit my hiking style and plan the timing accordingly.
2. What are the thoughts of other hikers on the different options for guidebooks? Would you recommend carrying (on the trail) the full guidebook, the data book, the map book, Yogi McDonnell's book, a combination of them, or one that is not even listed in the pmags article? Why?
3. What do other hikers do specifically for bear precautions?
4. What is your recommended water capacity, of the following: 3L, 4L, or 6L?
5. What are the most recent trends in the highest and lowest temperatures for a thru-hike? NEBO, if known.
6. Do you have any favorite attractions off the trail, including but not limited to towns and mountain peaks?
7. Please elaborate your thoughts on my gear list, as linked to in the OP.

[Mr Liberty]

After doing more independent research, I've found the following:

www.almanac.com has a weather history for Cottonwood Pass (elevation 12,126 feet). The pass (correct me if I'm wrong) should be fairly representative of most of the trail, yes? Either way, here's the temperatures (each Wednesday) from June 4 to September 24, 2014.



Source: www.j.mp/1PopNdw

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition, I found this web page [http://www.downthetrail.com/?p=37] useful in looking at peakbagging opportunities, and it also includes a well-thought out response to pmags's end-to-end guide (see stickied thread).

[Mags]

Seems like you want some answers directly for specific hikes.

I suggest you look at trailjournals.com and postholer.com for the answers. Many of the journals, at the end, answer your specific questions. There is no right answer as people have carried all the resources listed and have opinions on all of them.

Again, the individual journals will answer the questions usually.

It requires some research on your part, but with all the resources of the Internet, should be a do-able enough task. Many people are not going to be as inclined to answer questions for your specific needs vs generalities.

Good luck!

[Mr Liberty]

Have done some more research. I'll post what I've found below. Can a CT veteran please confirm/refute this please?

Travel Accomodations
(assuming living in continental US) I recommend taking the train:
1. nostalgic feel (always important )
2. slowly acclimate to the altitude (if you are from a lower elevation)
3. train tickets tend to be cheaper than airfare (depending on start location)
4. there are less restrictions on what you can bring (no TSA scanners to take away your extra-dangerous-super-sharp-pointy-murderous SAK, etc. )

There are Amtrak stations in both Denver and Grand Junction. (http://amtrak.com)

Bus between Grand Junction and Durango, $40 (http://roadrunnerstagelines.com/)

Going NEBO? The train gets into Grand Junction after the bus leaves. You'll need a place to spend the night so you can catch the bus the next day. This place looks nice, $25 hostel rooms: http://www.historicmelrosehouse.com/rates.php

Of course, there are flights from the Denver airport to pretty much anywhere in the world; I'd recommend flying only on the way home after a NEBO (unless you live at 8,000+ feet normally, then acclimation is not a problem).

Guidebooks and Maps
The Official CT guidebook is big, heavy, and more than you would need. Nice to reference at home, but don't carry it.
The Official CT databook is compact, light, and packed with very useful information. Carry it in an easily accessible pocket.
Trails Illustrated Maps: Numbers 127, 129, 130, and 139 are nice if you would like to do alternate routes and/or side hikes to bag some 14ers.

Carrying 3 TI maps and the databook should come out to about 320g/11 oz. Of course, you can always mail some TI maps ahead.

Can someone who knows more than me please confirm the info I put above as well as the temperature guidelines in my last post? Thanks!
Bonus points to critiquing my gear list!

[San Juan Ron]

The temps can range from the 90s near Denver (Waterton Canyon, Burn Area -- Segments 1&2) to near freezing at higher elevations during the early mornings. High temps at 12k+ can be as low as the 50s or into the 70s. July & August are the two primary monsoon months (and honking months) so afternoon thunderstorms are likely on most days.

Most hikers begin at the very end of June through early August. Beginning any earlier than the end of June can be problematic due to snow at higher elevations. Post holing will slow you down and take out some of the fun factor. The snow varies every year -- but early forecasts for '15/'16 are projecting heavier than normal snow due to El Niño. You really need to be finished by mid to late September unless you take added gear as the temps can be in the low 20s at higher altitudes and snow isn't unusual.

I only take the Databook with me when hiking. Everything else is too heavy. My water capacity is 4L to handle the long stretches without water and ensure that I have water for my dehydrated meals in the evening AND my required coffee in the morning.

Ron

[San Juan Ron]

Honking months ��

make that HIKING months -- why no edit function??

Ron

[lonehiker]

Guidebooks and Maps
The Official CT guidebook is big, heavy, and more than you would need. Nice to reference at home, but don't carry it.
The Official CT databook is compact, light, and packed with very useful information. Carry it in an easily accessible pocket.
Trails Illustrated Maps: Numbers 127, 129, 130, and 139 are nice if you would like to do alternate routes and/or side hikes to bag some 14ers.

Carrying 3 TI maps and the databook should come out to about 320g/11 oz. Of course, you can always mail some TI maps ahead.
[B]

I would recommend Erik the Black's CT Atlas. It is only 3.5 oz and has map, guidebook, town guides.

[MuddyWaters]

I like Eriks atlas, but the changing directions on pages as trail changes directions is confusing, especially going backwards nebo. Still, having the water sources, established campsites, etc on the maps makes it very convenient. That and the map for western collegiate is all thats really needed. Supplement it with a guthook app, or free gps app with CT gps track and you got more than you need .

There are a couple of potentially dry 20+ mile stretches. How much water, depends on you, and if you are overnighting. This takes some planning on how you intend to traverse these areas, where you resupply and how much food you are carrying at the time. It could take some 2L, it could take some 6-8L. Thunderstorms and lightning hazards play a role here too.

Idoubt you are going to acclimate on the train. I dont find long distance train travel any cheaper than airfare, its comparably priced, and slower. Chicago is a big Amtrak hub so you may have an advantage. Many cities travel a day or more out of the way to Chicago first, before heading west. For example, New Orleans to Denver....goes thru Chicago. Add the bus on at the end and you might as well fly to Durango IMO, especially if you eat up vacation time due to 2-3 days of travel on train.

The normal rule for acclimatization is no more than 3000 ft per night, above ~8000 ft. You can sort of do this out of Durangao going nebo and the acclimatization issue doesnt have to be that bad. It wouldnt hurt to get some diamox from a physician, and just not really worry about it at all. Spend first night in durango at 6500, first on trail at 9XXX is possible, then 11XXX. This would still be too much for many, including my wife, but it wouldnt bother me much based on past experiences.

[Mr Liberty]

The temps can range from the 90s near Denver (Waterton Canyon, Burn Area -- Segments 1&2) to near freezing at higher elevations during the early mornings. High temps at 12k+ can be as low as the 50s or into the 70s. July & August are the two primary monsoon months (and [hiking] months) so afternoon thunderstorms are likely on most days.

Most hikers begin at the very end of June through early August. Beginning any earlier than the end of June can be problematic due to snow at higher elevations. Post holing will slow you down and take out some of the fun factor. The snow varies every year -- but early forecasts for '15/'16 are projecting heavier than normal snow due to El Niño. You really need to be finished by mid to late September unless you take added gear as the temps can be in the low 20s at higher altitudes and snow isn't unusual.

I only take the Databook with me when hiking. Everything else is too heavy. My water capacity is 4L to handle the long stretches without water and ensure that I have water for my dehydrated meals in the evening AND my required coffee in the morning.

Ron

Thanks! It's great to get some firsthand accounts of the weather conditions along the trail. And good point about El Niño, I hadn't considered that.


-

I would recommend Erik the Black's CT Atlas. It is only 3.5 oz and has map, guidebook, town guides.

(For those following along at home, the book can be found here. [http://j.mp/1JakPQI]) This looks quite promising! A bit spendy, but it's considerably lighter and more compact, so I might order it this winter and compare it to the other options. Excellent suggestion, thank you!


-

I like Eriks atlas, but the changing directions on pages as trail changes directions is confusing, especially going backwards nebo. Still, having the water sources, established campsites, etc on the maps makes it very convenient. That and the map for western collegiate is all thats really needed. Supplement it with a guthook app, or free gps app with CT gps track and you got more than you need .

There are a couple of potentially dry 20+ mile stretches. How much water, depends on you, and if you are overnighting. This takes some planning on how you intend to traverse these areas, where you resupply and how much food you are carrying at the time. It could take some 2L, it could take some 6-8L. Thunderstorms and lightning hazards play a role here too.

Idoubt you are going to acclimate on the train. I dont find long distance train travel any cheaper than airfare, its comparably priced, and slower. Chicago is a big Amtrak hub so you may have an advantage. Many cities travel a day or more out of the way to Chicago first, before heading west. For example, New Orleans to Denver....goes thru Chicago. Add the bus on at the end and you might as well fly to Durango IMO, especially if you eat up vacation time due to 2-3 days of travel on train.

The normal rule for acclimatization is no more than 3000 ft per night, above ~8000 ft. You can sort of do this out of Durangao going nebo and the acclimatization issue doesnt have to be that bad. It wouldnt hurt to get some diamox from a physician, and just not really worry about it at all. Spend first night in durango at 6500, first on trail at 9XXX is possible, then 11XXX. This would still be too much for many, including my wife, but it wouldnt bother me much based on past experiences.

Thanks for the info on guidebooks and maps. I'll also make sure to look into the smartphone apps.

Considering what you and San Juan Ron said, I'm thinking I'll go with 4L (1L nalgene, 1L reservoir, 1L smartwater [can backflush filter too] and a 1L grey water bag). I did fine with 5L in much drier conditions, so I think I'll be fine, with proper planning.

As for train travel, I suppose it's really only worth it if you already live somewhat near a station on the California Zephyr line (so, those who live around Chicago, Denver, Salt Lake City, or Emeryville/San Francisco, or near one of the smaller-town stops in between), because it will probably be cheaper than airfare (I'm looking at a $60 to $115 train ticket, a flight would run me about $95 to $180 and still only get me to Denver, not Grand Junction).
The reason I said it helps with acclimation is purely because it is slower than air travel: you change elevation over the course of one or two full days, rather than one or two hours. Of course, I'd still strongly recommend that you spend a night at your starting point before hitting the trail.
I suppose it really just depends on where you're starting from; for me, the train and the bus makes the most sense for me, being near Chicago. If you're starting from, say, New Orleans, it might be worth it to fly into Denver instead (especially if you're doing a SWBO).

Also, thanks for the tip on asking a doctor for acclimatization meds; I'll make sure to ask about it at my next check-up.

[bearcreek]

I have done the CT six times and never carried more than three liters of water. You will need some extra in segment two if you decide to camp there and in segment 23. Other than that, you will find abundant water. I usually carry one full 1 liter bottle and "camel up" whenever I find water, that is, drink a bunch and filter - carry one liter.

As far as cold weather goes, I wouldn't sweat it until October. Any later than that and you will need some warmer gear, but until October you should be ok.

IMO, September is the best month to hike the CT. Cooler weather, fall colors, not many others out there. Colorado is definitely in a wet weather pattern, but September should be fine.

[Mr Liberty]

I have done the CT six times and never carried more than three liters of water. You will need some extra in segment two if you decide to camp there and in segment 23. Other than that, you will find abundant water. I usually carry one full 1 liter bottle and "camel up" whenever I find water, that is, drink a bunch and filter - carry one liter.

As far as cold weather goes, I wouldn't sweat it until October. Any later than that and you will need some warmer gear, but until October you should be ok.

IMO, September is the best month to hike the CT. Cooler weather, fall colors, not many others out there. Colorado is [definitely] in a wet weather pattern, but September should be fine.

Thanks for your input! I figured that 4L would be a good capacity because it leaves me with enough capacity to do ~1 full day "dry" (2 if I really had to stretch it--you know, emergency preparedness and all that jazz), but it's not so much that I'm wasting a bunch of weight on unfilled containers.
I think for the most part I'll probably be carrying one full nalgene (1L with drink mix or something in it) and one full reservoir (1L of pure water), and topping those off whenever I get to a water source.

I greatly appreciate your call on the weather (and I trust your judgement, given your location), it definitely puts to rest any fears that I might be going with too light of gear for the cold. Due to other things in my schedule, though, it looks like I'll probably end up hiking from late July to mid August, so I'll miss the beauty of the fall. (Maybe another year! ) On the bright side, I think I'll end up just fine with a baselayer and fleece (and rain coat if it gets particularly wet/cold/windy), so there's no need for a heavier jacket .

[StubbleJumper]

Thanks for your input! I figured that 4L would be a good capacity because it leaves me with enough capacity to do ~1 full day "dry" (2 if I really had to stretch it--you know, emergency preparedness and all that jazz), but it's not so much that I'm wasting a bunch of weight on unfilled containers.
I think for the most part I'll probably be carrying one full nalgene (1L with drink mix or something in it) and one full reservoir (1L of pure water), and topping those off whenever I get to a water source.

I greatly appreciate your call on the weather (and I trust your judgement, given your location), it definitely puts to rest any fears that I might be going with too light of gear for the cold. Due to other things in my schedule, though, it looks like I'll probably end up hiking from late July to mid August, so I'll miss the beauty of the fall. (Maybe another year! ) On the bright side, I think I'll end up just fine with a baselayer and fleece (and rain coat if it gets particularly wet/cold/windy), so there's no need for a heavier jacket .

I will respectfully disagree with Bearcreek about preparing for cold temperatures. You should plan to have overnight temperatures down to the low-30s to mid-30s on a few occasions over the course of a through-hike. Bring a bag and other clothes that will permit you to spend the night at near-freezing temperatures. If you are an early-riser like me, you will also need a jacket that is warm enough to let you break camp in the morning in the cold -- particularly if you are the type of hiker who prefers to fart around in the morning over a leisurely breakfast (I prefer to wake up, break camp and be on the trail with 30 min of awakening...but to each his own). For reference, you should look at the historical temperatures reported at the Snowtel monitoring sites to get an idea of what the night time low might be. The following are links for Sargeant's Mesa and Mineral Creek, both of which are bang-on the CT:

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/site?sitenum=1128

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/site?sitenum=629

Not to belabour the point, but on August 9 and 10, 2014, the overnight low at Mineral Creek hit 1.7 and 1.9 degrees celsius respectively, which equates to 35 or 36 degrees.

[bearcreek]

see below....

[bearcreek]

I will respectfully disagree with Bearcreek about preparing for cold temperatures. You should plan to have overnight temperatures down to the low-30s to mid-30s on a few occasions over the course of a through-hike. Bring a bag and other clothes that will permit you to spend the night at near-freezing temperatures. If you are an early-riser like me, you will also need a jacket that is warm enough to let you break camp in the morning in the cold -- particularly if you are the type of hiker who prefers to fart around in the morning over a leisurely breakfast (I prefer to wake up, break camp and be on the trail with 30 min of awakening...but to each his own). For reference, you should look at the historical temperatures reported at the Snowtel monitoring sites to get an idea of what the night time low might be. The following are links for Sargeant's Mesa and Mineral Creek, both of which are bang-on the CT:

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/site?sitenum=1128

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/site?sitenum=629

Not to belabour the point, but on August 9 and 10, 2014, the overnight low at Mineral Creek hit 1.7 and 1.9 degrees celsius respectively, which equates to 35 or 36 degrees.

image.jpg

Well, yeah.... The photo above of my frozen tent was taken August 9, 2013 at Stony Pass.

I didn't say you shouldn't be prepared for cold temperatures. It can freeze or snow in the high country any day of the year, and it is often very cold and wet. You should always be prepared for that possibility regardless of the month you are there. Your reference regarding temperatures at Mineral Creek is a good example. My fall hiking setup is no different than my summer setup, except I carry a bright cap when hunters are present in the fall.

Here is link to my gear list. It is the same list for summer and fall. (Winter is a different story.) If you are always prepared for temps in the 30's or high 20's you should be good for the entire hiking season.

http://www.bearcreeksurvey.com/Data/...calculator.xls

[Venchka]

From my kitchen:
1 liter purple Nalgene bottle - 179 grams.
1 quart evamore water bottle from a supermarket - 33 grams.
1 liter Earth Fare brand bottle - 32 grams.
Save your money. Save weight. Reuse store bought water bottles.
I totally agree that you need to be prepared for temps in the low 20s or even the teens in September. The coldest night that I have ever spent in a tent was around Labor Day at 30 Mile Reservoir above Creede, CO. Around dark the temperature started dropping like a stone. The next morning our canvas water bucket had a 2 inch block of ice over 2-3 gallons of water. Every day and night is different in the mountains. You never know what you'll be hit with. 20 degrees is a good number to be ready for.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[Venchka]

PS: a 1.5 liter bottle weighs 34 grams. 50% more capacity for a 2 grams increase in weight. The winner!

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[Sure Foot]

I would not recommend the Melrose Hotel in Grand Junction. There are three hotels on Main Street with shuttles to the Amtrak and the train station.

[Mr Liberty]

I will respectfully disagree with Bearcreek about preparing for cold temperatures. You should plan to have overnight temperatures down to the low-30s to mid-30s on a few occasions over the course of a through-hike. Bring a bag and other clothes that will permit you to spend the night at near-freezing temperatures. If you are an early-riser like me, you will also need a jacket that is warm enough to let you break camp in the morning in the cold -- particularly if you are the type of hiker who prefers to fart around in the morning over a leisurely breakfast (I prefer to wake up, break camp and be on the trail with 30 min of awakening...but to each his own). For reference, you should look at the historical temperatures reported at the Snowtel monitoring sites to get an idea of what the night time low might be. The following are links for Sargeant's Mesa and Mineral Creek, both of which are bang-on the CT:

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/site?sitenum=1128

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/site?sitenum=629

Not to belabour the point, but on August 9 and 10, 2014, the overnight low at Mineral Creek hit 1.7 and 1.9 degrees celsius respectively, which equates to 35 or 36 degrees.

I see what you mean. (BTW: Absolutely excellent resources, those weather station reports; thanks for posting the links!) It looks like my gear might need a little tweaking then; I'm considering buying a puffy to replace my fleece... if only they weren't so darned expensive! My bag and pad have gotten me down to ~38 deg F in a t-shirt and shorts before (unpleasant, but I survived, and actually slept a little), so I think with a good base layer and maybe a jacket inside, I will be fine at any nighttime temps I should encounter. I usually break camp pretty quickly (really it just depends on how much effort it takes to make breakfast), so I just need enough insulation to keep me from freezing on a 14,440 foot peak during the day and any particularly chilly nights I might have.

Well, yeah.... The photo above of my frozen tent was taken August 9, 2013 at Stony Pass.

I didn't say you shouldn't be prepared for cold temperatures. It can freeze or snow in the high country any day of the year, and it is often very cold and wet. You should always be prepared for that possibility regardless of the month you are there. Your reference regarding temperatures at Mineral Creek is a good example. My fall hiking setup is no different than my summer setup, except I carry a bright cap when hunters are present in the fall.

Here is link to my gear list. It is the same list for summer and fall. (Winter is a different story.) If you are always prepared for temps in the 30's or high 20's you should be good for the entire hiking season.

http://www.bearcreeksurvey.com/Data/...calculator.xls

Thanks for the list! Awesome to see how light you can be with smart gear choice (and enough money for some cuben stuff )It opened my eyes to where I can drop some more weight (my cooking system, especially, really needs to get dialed in--I could drop a good half-pound there).

I think I'll be good down to freezing once I get my jacket situation finalized (I'll do that this fall/winter when I can test things out in the actual temperatures).

From my kitchen:
1 liter purple Nalgene bottle - 179 grams.
1 quart evamore water bottle from a supermarket - 33 grams.
1 liter Earth Fare brand bottle - 32 grams.
Save your money. Save weight. Reuse store bought water bottles.
I totally agree that you need to be prepared for temps in the low 20s or even the teens in September. The coldest night that I have ever spent in a tent was around Labor Day at 30 Mile Reservoir above Creede, CO. Around dark the temperature started dropping like a stone. The next morning our canvas water bucket had a 2 inch block of ice over 2-3 gallons of water. Every day and night is different in the mountains. You never know what you'll be hit with. 20 degrees is a good number to be ready for.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

--

PS: a 1.5 liter bottle weighs 34 grams. 50% more capacity for a 2 grams increase in weight. The winner!

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

I've recently come to terms with my Nalgene problem:

Really, the only reason I like to carry a Nalgene (ONE, no more than that) is because it's dependable (practically indestructible), has a wide mouth (so you don't get drink mix everywhere when you try to put your gatorade powder in it), and it can hold boiling liquids (soup, and warm water to put in your sleeping bag)...
...Now that I think about it, I can ditch the Nalgene. I'm packing my fears. If I take even just reasonably good care of a reused plastic bottle, there's no chance it will break or fail on me; even if it did, I'd survive. I don't need it to hold any boiling liquids (at least on this trip), and I can eat soup out of my pot. Any suggestions on what drinks come in a 1L bottle with a nice wide mouth?

Thanks for the tip on the weather. Looks like my gear will need to get tuned a little to get me down just a little colder. And I agree with you: respect the mountains, you never know what they'll throw at you.