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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    The Knife Edge is deceptive. It doesn't appear to be much of a technical trail, but once out on the exposure and the weather changes or the winds come, it gets very dangerous very fast. There have been several deaths along that mile of trail and more than several injuries that have required evacuation. On a trail a few feet wide with drop offs of 1,000 feet on either side, vertigo can become a problem on a calm day. People have been blown off that ridge in less that serious weather conditions, convection winds can be gusty or just breezy within the same few minutes. Footing is treacherous and can be made dangerous by just a little moisture. The real danger is over confidence where caution should rule the day.

    Its ok to have a trail of this caliber in your comfort zone, but that zone should include a high respect for the many different things that can happen. Though you may not think it difficult from a photo, once there it will likely change and the mountain may have other ideas of how it wants you to pass. Dismissing the dangers of this type from a photo is bad form, as noted by Sir Edmund Hillary in a different hill.

    "Many people have been getting too casual about climbing Everest. I forecast a disaster many times" Sir Edmund Hillary

    If its a marked hiking trail in America, it cannot be that difficult, or else it wouldnt be a marked trail. Im not saying you cant die, Im just saying theres not much in the way of technical difficulty. Angels Landing in Zion comes to mind. You dont even need the chains, as evidenced by the fact that me, with zero rock climbing experience at the time, was able to ascend, descend, reascend, and redescend without once touching the chains. But of course if you fall there is no recourse.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpphoto View Post
    If its a marked hiking trail in America, it cannot be that difficult, or else it wouldnt be a marked trail. Im not saying you cant die, Im just saying theres not much in the way of technical difficulty. Angels Landing in Zion comes to mind. You dont even need the chains, as evidenced by the fact that me, with zero rock climbing experience at the time, was able to ascend, descend, reascend, and redescend without once touching the chains. But of course if you fall there is no recourse.
    Under estimation is the father of most back country problems and accidents. We see this time and again. Had Kate Matrosova survived the blazed trail route in the White Mountains last winter, she may have some strong opinions about that particular topic. She was a highly experienced mountaineer and didn't survive what she felt would be a very doable if not routine day hike on what is a marked, non technical trail. Just because a trail is a marked out does not lessen its lethality in certain conditions or your particular condition that day.

    Your experience in Zion does not demonstrate the safety of marked trails, it more accurately demonstrates the level of risk you choose to take. We sometimes do things in youth we would not consider doing as we get older, not because we are frightened but because our risk analysis becomes more focused as we become more aware of consequences others have experienced. To paraphrase an old aviation quote: The trail in itself is not inherently dangerous, but much like the sea it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.

    Mt Washington is not a technical climb either, but its one of the most dangerous small mountains in the world with some 125 souls losing their lives on her slopes due to under estimating the mountain.

    Something to think about.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpphoto View Post
    If its a marked hiking trail in America, it cannot be that difficult, or else it wouldnt be a marked trail. Im not saying you cant die, Im just saying theres not much in the way of technical difficulty. Angels Landing in Zion comes to mind. You dont even need the chains, as evidenced by the fact that me, with zero rock climbing experience at the time, was able to ascend, descend, reascend, and redescend without once touching the chains. But of course if you fall there is no recourse.
    Yep, I remember that chain well, and the 1000' sheer drop. My palms begin to sweat just thinking about it. I prefer to be at least two or three steps away from certain death.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    Under estimation is the father of most back country problems and accidents. We see this time and again. Had Kate Matrosova survived the blazed trail route in the White Mountains last winter, she may have some strong opinions about that particular topic. She was a highly experienced mountaineer and didn't survive what she felt would be a very doable if not routine day hike on what is a marked, non technical trail. Just because a trail is a marked out does not lessen its lethality in certain conditions or your particular condition that day.

    Your experience in Zion does not demonstrate the safety of marked trails, it more accurately demonstrates the level of risk you choose to take. We sometimes do things in youth we would not consider doing as we get older, not because we are frightened but because our risk analysis becomes more focused as we become more aware of consequences others have experienced. To paraphrase an old aviation quote: The trail in itself is not inherently dangerous, but much like the sea it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.

    Mt Washington is not a technical climb either, but its one of the most dangerous small mountains in the world with some 125 souls losing their lives on her slopes due to under estimating the mountain.

    Something to think about.
    125 people die on Mt. Washington because there is a road going to the top. Mt. Marcy gets the same weather, but how come we have almost no deaths on that mountain? Perhaps because you have to do the un-American thing and walk there? And winter mountaineering is a separate matter. But in summer, especially in the mild northeast where hail and snow are not exactly common June-September, its pretty hard to die. You have to work for it. Or just show up in shorts and t, both cotton, then youll be dead too.

  5. #45

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    I did the Knife Edge last Sunday along with 100s of others. I had been reading this thread so kept an eye out as I walked. The actual trail is in some places 12 inches wide but to either side there are frequently bypasses. For the vast majority of the hike, there are talus fields on either side that are steep but adequate to catch a hiker that would fall. There are on the other hand, a few spots predominantly on the Chimney Pond Cirque side of the trail where the rock drops away at 70 to 80 degrees off vertical. In those spots there are no backup places to fall. There are plenty of footholds and handholds in these areas and the rock is quite abrasive for grip. The biggest area of problems is at the Chimney with a somewhat vertical wall on the Pamola Side has to be climbed and the decent into the Chimney from the pinnacle immediately west of it. In both cases someone falling will not fall down the mountain, rather they will fall into the Chimney which is flat at the bottom with room for many people.

    For the volume and ability of hikers traversing this trail, the number of deaths and injuries are low. The biggest issues would be weather related. There is no shelter for this trail and it is exposed from one end to the other. It also descends away from the summit on the lee side which means that incoming weather is not visible so rain showers can appear suddenly. Due to the exposure its no place to be when its windy as if someone is forced to have three points in contact with the ground progress will slow considerably. If the wind is such that one cant walk upright without poles or grab points, then its best to choose another route.

  6. #46
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    I did Knife Edge before I knew about trekking poles. If I were to do Knife Edge again, I wouldn't bring them. This is the sort of terrain where you'll need your hands. Four-limb climbing, I think they call it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    I did Knife Edge before I knew about trekking poles. If I were to do Knife Edge again, I wouldn't bring them. This is the sort of terrain where you'll need your hands. Four-limb climbing, I think they call it.
    Its that beautiful gray area that is mindlessly easy for most rock climbers but scares the pants off most hikers!

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpphoto View Post
    125 people die on Mt. Washington because there is a road going to the top. Mt. Marcy gets the same weather, but how come we have almost no deaths on that mountain? Perhaps because you have to do the un-American thing and walk there? And winter mountaineering is a separate matter. But in summer, especially in the mild northeast where hail and snow are not exactly common June-September, its pretty hard to die. You have to work for it. Or just show up in shorts and t, both cotton, then youll be dead too.
    125 people have died on Mt Washington because they drove up? Clearly you don't know a lot about the Mountain. While not taking anything away from Marcy, it is not anything like Washington. "Not Without Peril" is a book I would recommend for you, which documents various people and their treks that ended badly that go back over a century to now, many of them unaware or cavalier about the dangers the mountain holds for the unprepared. This is not a technical climb, but it can and will chew people up if one under estimates the potential weather issues.

    The worst weather conditions in North America occur on Mt Washington, along with the strongest winds ever recorded in North America. Its also a very cold mountain, having lower temperatures rivaling higher latitudes in Alaska and most of Canada during all months of the year. This is due to mainly to its geographical location, distance from the sea and being a convergent area for weather systems. It has snowed there all months of the year and routinely has dramatic temperature changes well beyond the normal lapse rate. A balmy June or August day at the bottom can be anywhere from 30 to 50 degrees cooler at the summit depending on time of year on nice days. Weather changes happen extremely fast and can sock you in with very cold fog and drizzle in the 40 degree range in mid August with a 50 mph or higher wind. It is not unheard of for snow and freezing rain to develop in these conditions.

    My point is not that one should be frightened of every step in the woods, but that one should always respect the power of nature and the elements, especially in challenging environments. Blazed trails are not always safe or easy, though they can be under perfect conditions. We work around weather and terrain effects routinely, with most hikes being in places where weather and/or terrain are easily mitigated being properly prepared. However, under estimation being what it is, its not hard at all to succumb to hypothermia, it can and does happen to tourists in cotton and sneakers and highly experienced mountaineers. Being unaware of the dangers, or worse, believing because a trail is marked makes it not dangerous and not being prepared for condition changes is a hard lesson many have learned. Some paying the ultimate price.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    125 people have died on Mt Washington because they drove up? Clearly you don't know a lot about the Mountain. While not taking anything away from Marcy, it is not anything like Washington. "Not Without Peril" is a book I would recommend for you, which documents various people and their treks that ended badly that go back over a century to now, many of them unaware or cavalier about the dangers the mountain holds for the unprepared. This is not a technical climb, but it can and will chew people up if one under estimates the potential weather issues.

    The worst weather conditions in North America occur on Mt Washington, along with the strongest winds ever recorded in North America. Its also a very cold mountain, having lower temperatures rivaling higher latitudes in Alaska and most of Canada during all months of the year. This is due to mainly to its geographical location, distance from the sea and being a convergent area for weather systems. It has snowed there all months of the year and routinely has dramatic temperature changes well beyond the normal lapse rate. A balmy June or August day at the bottom can be anywhere from 30 to 50 degrees cooler at the summit depending on time of year on nice days. Weather changes happen extremely fast and can sock you in with very cold fog and drizzle in the 40 degree range in mid August with a 50 mph or higher wind. It is not unheard of for snow and freezing rain to develop in these conditions.

    My point is not that one should be frightened of every step in the woods, but that one should always respect the power of nature and the elements, especially in challenging environments. Blazed trails are not always safe or easy, though they can be under perfect conditions. We work around weather and terrain effects routinely, with most hikes being in places where weather and/or terrain are easily mitigated being properly prepared. However, under estimation being what it is, its not hard at all to succumb to hypothermia, it can and does happen to tourists in cotton and sneakers and highly experienced mountaineers. Being unaware of the dangers, or worse, believing because a trail is marked makes it not dangerous and not being prepared for condition changes is a hard lesson many have learned. Some paying the ultimate price.
    I should start by saying I agree with you on most fronts, and am well aware that the best weather for hypothermia is not the middle of winter, but what you described, 30s/40s windy and wet. I get that its nothing to trifle with. I guess Ive just had enough time in wild enough weather on mountain summits to know that as long as you have the proper clothing, its no big deal. Im not underestimating the mountain. I am properly gauging it juxtaposed with my abilities and my gear. The northeast is so condensed and filled with paved roads thats quite hard to get lost for more than a day if you have even a little common sense about you. For example, on Washington, unless you walked off the NW side or due S, you cant go more than a few miles without hitting a road.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpphoto View Post
    I should start by saying I agree with you on most fronts, and am well aware that the best weather for hypothermia is not the middle of winter, but what you described, 30s/40s windy and wet. I get that its nothing to trifle with. I guess Ive just had enough time in wild enough weather on mountain summits to know that as long as you have the proper clothing, its no big deal. Im not underestimating the mountain. I am properly gauging it juxtaposed with my abilities and my gear. The northeast is so condensed and filled with paved roads thats quite hard to get lost for more than a day if you have even a little common sense about you. For example, on Washington, unless you walked off the NW side or due S, you cant go more than a few miles without hitting a road.
    Kate Matrosova thought that, too.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    Kate Matrosova thought that, too.
    That was in February. February is just a bit different than July and August isnt it?

  12. #52
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    ^^ I'm responding to the highlighted sentence in your prior post, #49. If not for your benefit, then for others. There's a whole lot of bravado and machismo on this forum, and my self-appointed role is to tamp it down just a notch.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    ^^ I'm responding to the highlighted sentence in your prior post, #49. If not for your benefit, then for others. There's a whole lot of bravado and machismo on this forum, and my self-appointed role is to tamp it down just a notch.
    Hahah. Why else go to the mountains unless to conquer and raise your flag??

  14. #54
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    I can think of all sorts of reasons. I don't go to the woods to conquer a trail or conquer a mountain. I go for recreation.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    I can think of all sorts of reasons. I don't go to the woods to conquer a trail or conquer a mountain. I go for recreation.
    Sorry I should have added the /s to indicate sarcasm. One can never conquer a mountain. The mountain merely lets you stand upon it for a short while. And that is no sarcasm.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpphoto View Post
    I should start by saying I agree with you on most fronts, and am well aware that the best weather for hypothermia is not the middle of winter, but what you described, 30s/40s windy and wet. I get that its nothing to trifle with. I guess Ive just had enough time in wild enough weather on mountain summits to know that as long as you have the proper clothing, its no big deal. Im not underestimating the mountain. I am properly gauging it juxtaposed with my abilities and my gear. The northeast is so condensed and filled with paved roads thats quite hard to get lost for more than a day if you have even a little common sense about you. For example, on Washington, unless you walked off the NW side or due S, you cant go more than a few miles without hitting a road.
    Good deal. Forgive the nudge, but a lot of people tend to not respect where they are going and not ending up well that it deserves a call out.

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