Alcohol, solid fuel and wood stoves banned in Rocky Mtn National Park

[Mags]

So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.

Not so much doubting, but wanting to see in this new development in writing, I sent an inquiry to RMNP today. Note this was for RMNP only. Not sure about outer NPS units.
I will admit to being a little surprised as this is the first I heard of such a ban in NPS units outside of general open flame bans. RMNP does not allow campfires except in campground and a very limited amount of backcountry sites..so maybe I should not be surprised.

Here's the exchange if anyone is curious. To help prevent auto spammers, I've changed the direct email adresses to dashes...


ROMO Information, NPS (sent by [email protected])
10:30 AM (3 hours ago)
to pmags
The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves, propane turkey cookers and gas grills are allowed for food preparation in all campgrounds. Used charcoal and ash must be completely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle. In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted. There are a few back country sites that do have fire rings where you may have wood fires and even charcoal fires if you wish to carry in charcoal. Thank you for your interest in Rocky Mountain National Park.

Information Office
Rocky Mountain National Park
970.586.1206


On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Paul Mags <[email protected]> wrote:

Thank you for the information.

If possible, could you please clarify this statement: " In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted" ?

Does that mean canister and white gas stoves *only*? (i.e. stoves with UL certification and an on/off valve). Are solid fuel stoves and alcohol stoves specifically banned for backcountry use?

Again, thank you for your time.

ROMO Information, NPS (sent by [email protected]) 12:36 PM (1 hour ago)
to Paul
Stoves must have an on/off switch to be used in the Park.



(Emphasis in red mine)

[MuddyWaters]

Bummer. My cannister stove doesnt have an on-off switch, and I dont know of any that do.
They have a needle valve, which can be closed.

[Slo-go'en]

Bummer. My cannister stove doesnt have an on-off switch, and I dont know of any that do.
They have a needle valve, which can be closed.

Obviously they mean a stove which has a means of turning off the flame, which is a valve of some sort.

However, banning alcohol stoves is a bit over the top. Yes, they can be knocked over and spread fuel, but I've seen enough white gas stoves spit fire out of loose fittings or turn into flame throwers when over pressurized that those can be an even greater risk. The rings you see burnt into picnic tables and shelter floors? Those are caused by whisper lite stoves which have the flame very close to what they are sitting on.

Oh well.

[MuddyWaters]

I dont have a problem with it.
But if its not published somehow by due process in the 36 CFR for NPS or addendums for RMNP, it basically doesnt exist.
I dont easily find it, which is odd. There is due process the federal government is required to follow for deciding and approving regulations.

If concerned, I would ask to be referred to the printed regulation in question.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Unfortunately, even though they may receive initial input from some technically competent people, many of these regulations are ultimately written by people who have little to no knowledge of the equipment, practices, etc. (and in some cases even basic science ). So they write a reg. that basically is a coverall. I think the biggest reason for including alcohol stoves is that most are burning uncontained fuels with no means to stop the fuel flow, as opposed to canister and traditional white gas stoves. Granted, any stove can malfunction and start a fire, and regarding alcohol you can remove the oxygen. But, there is a problem in that many alcohol stoves are homemade, and there is no way to control the ingenuity (and lack thereof of) of what devices some people will dream up and light off in the woods. So they write a reg. that basically ensures that allowed stoves will have been built by a company with some engineering resources.

[MuddyWaters]

Here is the law, from the compendium for RMNP: Note there is nothing about a shutoff valve, that was entirely fabricated. Alcohol was not addressed, likely from ignorance. As it reads to me, however poorly written, I can use an alcohol stove anywhere I want, its not regulated at all. That is surely not the intent however.

Section 2.13 Fires(a)(1)(i) Campfires are permitted in auto campgrounds, backcountry campsites that aredesignated as open to fires, designated picnic areas, and at permanent and termemployee housing and other residential areas as approved by the Superintendent,and only in metal fire grates provided by the park for such use.

The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves,petroleum fuel/gas stoves, and gas grills is allowed for food preparation asadjuncts to fire grates provided by the park in auto campgrounds and picnic areas,and designated backcountry sites by permit only. Used charcoal and ash must becompletely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle.

41(a)(1)(ii) Campfires and portable grills are permitted in the following areas:Campgrounds Aspenglen Glacier Basin Longs Peak Moraine Park Timber CreekPicnic Areas Beaver Ponds (In Kawuneeche Valley ONLY; Beaver Ponds Picnic Area EAST,below Hidden Valley, has been removed and rehabilitated) Bowen-Baker Colorado River Copeland Lake Endovalley Harbison Meadow Hidden Valley Hollowell Park Holzwarth Historic Site Lake Irene Lily Lake Picnic Area (ONLY self-contained cooking grills, and ONLY under theconditions of a special use permit. Sprague Lake Timber Lake Tuxedo Park Upper Beaver Meadows West Alluvial Fan Wild Basin TrailheadEmployee Housing Areas All Permanent, Term, and Seasonal employee housing areas where designated.(a)(3)(i) The use of open flame torches (e.g., “tiki” torches) is prohibited due to theincreased associated fire hazard.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Here is the law, from the compendium for RMNP: Note there is nothing about a shutoff valve, that was entirely fabricated. Alcohol was not addressed, likely from ignorance. As it reads to me, however poorly written, I can use an alcohol stove anywhere I want, its not regulated at all. That is surely not the intent however.

Section 2.13 Fires(a)(1)(i) Campfires are permitted in auto campgrounds, backcountry campsites that aredesignated as open to fires, designated picnic areas, and at permanent and termemployee housing and other residential areas as approved by the Superintendent,and only in metal fire grates provided by the park for such use.

The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves,petroleum fuel/gas stoves, and gas grills is allowed for food preparation asadjuncts to fire grates provided by the park in auto campgrounds and picnic areas,and designated backcountry sites by permit only. Used charcoal and ash must becompletely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle.

41(a)(1)(ii) Campfires and portable grills are permitted in the following areas:Campgrounds Aspenglen Glacier Basin Longs Peak Moraine Park Timber CreekPicnic Areas Beaver Ponds (In Kawuneeche Valley ONLY; Beaver Ponds Picnic Area EAST,below Hidden Valley, has been removed and rehabilitated) Bowen-Baker Colorado River Copeland Lake Endovalley Harbison Meadow Hidden Valley Hollowell Park Holzwarth Historic Site Lake Irene Lily Lake Picnic Area (ONLY self-contained cooking grills, and ONLY under theconditions of a special use permit. Sprague Lake Timber Lake Tuxedo Park Upper Beaver Meadows West Alluvial Fan Wild Basin TrailheadEmployee Housing Areas All Permanent, Term, and Seasonal employee housing areas where designated.(a)(3)(i) The use of open flame torches (e.g., “tiki” torches) is prohibited due to theincreased associated fire hazard.

Here's the thing, though. Regardless of the specific wording of the above, Park Superintendents have extremely broad powers under 36 CFR to interpret regulations and also to institute and enforce local rules - pretty much whatever they deem necessary at the time in order to protect the park. And that could include not allowing alcohol stoves if they deemed it so.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/2.13
[My bold for emphasis]
36 CFR § 2.13 Fires.
(a) The following are prohibited:

(1) Lighting or maintaining a fire, except in designated areas or receptacles and under conditions that may be established by the superintendent. [Note: This is the catch all.]

(2) Using stoves or lanterns in violation of established restrictions.

(3) Lighting, tending, or using a fire, stove or lantern in a manner that threatens, causes damage to, or results in the burning of property, real property or park resources, or creates a public safety hazard.

(4) Leaving a fire unattended.

(5) Throwing or discarding lighted or smoldering material in a manner that threatens, causes damage to, or results in the burning of property or park resources, or creates a public safety hazard.

(b) Fires shall be extinguished upon termination of use and in accordance with such conditions as may be established by the superintendent. Violation of these conditions is prohibited.

(c) During periods of high fire danger, the superintendent may close all or a portion of a park area to the lighting or maintaining of a fire.

[Mags]

You can contest what was written. But, it seems to me, you may get a ticket, too, in the process.

Just passing on the info direct from the source.

[MuddyWaters]

There is no catch all. Anything to be enforced, must be written down and signed off.
They may have good intentions, but they have vague poorly worded regulation that is subject to interpretation.

I had a hand in getting Yosemite to change theirs last year. It now explicitly states that alcohol and tablet stove are allowed, even in fire restrictions.
All they needed was someone to point out WHY they get so many questions about that stuff. The fact their rules were vague, and misleading , and didnt consider several options that backpackers use, as well as there being no such thing as jellied petroleum stove fuel, wasnt even on their radar. It was simple to get cleared up when it was brought to their attention. The rangers want clear regs too. It makes their life easier.

[Mags]

More importantly, though, I wonder if this banning of certain stoves types in RMNP is a trend? With all the droughts in the American West (Colorado was an anomaly this year..so far), and the potential for wildfires, I wonder if land agencies are becoming gun shy about certain stoves?
Seems so.
Alcohol and Esbit stoves still have their place. In the coming years, I just think their place will be increasingly less in the American West.

[4eyedbuzzard]

There is no catch all. Anything to be enforced, must be written down and signed off.
They may have good intentions, but they have vague poorly worded regulation that is subject to interpretation.

I had a hand in getting Yosemite to change theirs last year. It now explicitly states that alcohol and tablet stove are allowed, even in fire restrictions.
All they needed was someone to point out WHY they get so many questions about that stuff. The fact their rules were vague, and misleading , and didnt consider several options that backpackers use, as well as there being no such thing as jellied petroleum stove fuel, wasnt even on their radar. It was simple to get cleared up when it was brought to their attention. The rangers want clear regs too. It makes their life easier.

I agree. But the only way this stuff gets cleared up is, as you found out, if someone takes the effort to bring it up and follow through on it. But, on the other note, Superintendents (and Rangers) can make on-the-spot decisions as to what is allowed and what is not - whether written regs. exist or not. It's all about their determination if a threat to the park and/or people exists. Written regs. can't cover every possibility of what may happen, hence, they have very broad powers.

[Slo-go'en]

5c is the catch all.

A Caldora cone stove system is pretty fool proof. The addition of a small aluminum saucier under it to contain any possible fuel leak would make it even safer. One would also hope that anyone using such a stove (or any stove) in an area prone to forest fires is well versed in its care and feeding. But I guess in the National Park where they have to let anybody in, such assurances are not possible.

I kinda like the canister stove for it's convenience, but I hate buying the canisters and what to do with them when they are empty.

[MuddyWaters]

More importantly, though, I wonder if this banning of certain stoves types in RMNP is a trend? With all the droughts in the American West (Colorado was an anomaly this year..so far), and the potential for wildfires, I wonder if land agencies are becoming gun shy about certain stoves?
Seems so.
Alcohol and Esbit stoves still have their place. In the coming years, I just think their place will be increasingly less in the American West.

Possibly.
A fool can make a disaster with any stove though.
I was reading a CT blog the other day, and this dude had a pic of his caldera cone. Belching flames around the pot using twigs, with a note that it was the first time he had used wood in it.
The problem was, the ground was dried needles and stuff under it. The fool didnt clear the area to the dirt before doing this. It looked mighty dry too.
Seeing these people out there. maybe its for the best.
My zelph pot & BRS3000T stove, weigh 1.95 oz together. I cant complain about using that and getting 20 days on a small cannister.
Im a big alcohol fan, but it doesnt really matter that much to me. If it prevents 100,000 acres from burning due to an idiot, maybe thats OK.

A bigger problem, to me, is campfires. I would like to see campfires banned on all public land, and a national campaign to make people realize how dangerous, scarring, etc they are. There is simply no reason short of dieing of hypothermia , to have one.

People quit wearing fur, they can quit making fires in the woods.

[Another Kevin]

There is no catch all. Anything to be enforced, must be written down and signed off.
They may have good intentions, but they have vague poorly worded regulation that is subject to interpretation.

Since what's written down and signed off on is that fires are prohibited entirely, except as authorized by the Superintendent, that's what's enforceable. If the superintendent hasn't made any other determination, then fires are prohibited. Given that writing in the regulation, any ambiguity goes against allowing a fire.

[SimplyMe]

In AZ's Tonto National Forest I asked about the use of my Esbit stove. Took two days before the rangers returned with a strict NO. These are fire.

Well gee so is the propane stove sitting on the other guys tailgate of his pickup. Last year a major fire was started by a propane stove leaking and being knocked on the ground. ....
At least an Esbit burns out.

Clearity in statements would be better. No more hot coffee.

[Mags]

A fool can make a disaster with any stove though.

No disagreement there. I suspect that since these stove are often homemade or similar, that the "powers that be" don't trust them.

Similar type of situation to why legal does not trust open source software vs a more expensive option from say Microsoft.

[rocketsocks]

No disagreement there. I suspect that since these stove are often homemade or similar, that the "powers that be" don't trust them.

Similar type of situation to why legal does not trust open source software vs a more expensive option from say Microsoft.

...and ASTM, ASME, Underwriters, all that good stuff. So cooking with a tealight is out I guess?

[4eyedbuzzard]

In a mild defense of not allowing alcohol stoves under certain conditions, no one need look much further than all the burn marks on picnic tables and shelter floors on the AT. Not that a Whisperlite can't do that as well, but, just sayin'.

[Offshore]

[QUOTE=Slo-go'en;1976935}
I kinda like the canister stove for it's convenience, but I hate buying the canisters and what to do with them when they are empty.[/QUOTE]]

Carry the empty canister out, poke a few holes in in using a "church key" can opener or the Jetboil $5 tool and put it out with your recycling. Not a big deal.

[zelph]

So..I was a bit surprised when someone told me that alcohol stoves are banned in Rocky Mountain National Park.

Not so much doubting, but wanting to see in this new development in writing, I sent an inquiry to RMNP today. Note this was for RMNP only. Not sure about outer NPS units.
I will admit to being a little surprised as this is the first I heard of such a ban in NPS units outside of general open flame bans. RMNP does not allow campfires except in campground and a very limited amount of backcountry sites..so maybe I should not be surprised.

Here's the exchange if anyone is curious. To help prevent auto spammers, I've changed the direct email adresses to dashes...


ROMO Information, NPS (sent by [email protected])
10:30 AM (3 hours ago)
to pmags
The use of disposable or portable charcoal grills, wood fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves, propane turkey cookers and gas grills are allowed for food preparation in all campgrounds. Used charcoal and ash must be completely extinguished and disposed of in a trash receptacle. In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted. There are a few back country sites that do have fire rings where you may have wood fires and even charcoal fires if you wish to carry in charcoal. Thank you for your interest in Rocky Mountain National Park.

Information Office
Rocky Mountain National Park
970.586.1206


On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Paul Mags <[email protected]> wrote:

Thank you for the information.

If possible, could you please clarify this statement: " In back country sites, fuel camp stoves, petroleum fuel/gas stoves are permitted" ?

Does that mean canister and white gas stoves *only*? (i.e. stoves with UL certification and an on/off valve). Are solid fuel stoves and alcohol stoves specifically banned for backcountry use?

Again, thank you for your time.

ROMO Information, NPS (sent by [email protected]) 12:36 PM (1 hour ago)
to Paul
Stoves must have an on/off switch to be used in the Park.



(Emphasis in red mine)

All was going well until you introduced "on-off" valve etc.