Shelter etiquette question.....I think I got bamboozled :(

[magic_game03]

What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

+1

No whining!

+1

...they are intended... not reserved. Big difference.

+1 (I was just about to point that out. Likewise, it may be the stated general intention of the ATC, but on the flip side it says nothing about groups prohibited.

I got two things to add.
1) Once you go west and do some real hiking, you'll probably never want to stay in a shelter again. Good luck to you if you think shelters are the norm anywhere else besides the AT.

2) I'd rather city folk stick to day hiking and being shelter rats.

[wrap89]

Personally I would have had a sit down with the chaperons and explain to them about the rules/guidelines and if that didn't help I would have just simply moved on.

[perdidochas]

The flip side of this, is most adults will be somewhat suspicious of an older adult youth leader, with no kids of their own involved, and rightfully so.

I'm an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout Troop (and I have two boys in the troop). We welcome adult youth leaders without kids, albeit we keep an eye out for any kind of grooming behavior (as we do with the adult leaders with boys in the troop).

I will admit, a few years ago, I contemplated getting the kids (and adults) in good enough shape to section hike the AT for a week. After comments on this forum, I don't think I will. I think we will stick to lesser known trails, like the Pinhoti, etc.

[perdidochas]

This is happening more and more, and you won't do much of a hike without running into it now. The problem is not the kids, it's the leaders who don't care about hikers that aren't part of their group. Often these are families who live a few miles from the trail. You can tell they are local from the huge mess of gear they bring, plus dogs, kids, and elaborate smelly food.

The Boy Scouts can be the worst. I arrived at The Place in Damascus after traveling 18 hrs from Seattle, plus a long car ride from BWI. Nobody was there at 7 pm, but gear was strung everywhere like a bomb had gone off. So we claimed the remaining bunks, paid our fees, and got ready to retire. At 8 pm in comes this huge Boy Scout group from Kentucky. The kids were cool, but the leaders were livid that "hikers" had come in while they were out eating pizza. "We reserved the whole place", we were told. Followed by the proclamation "You can't sleep in a room with little boys!", he yelled.
We (three of us in our late 50's) quietly packed up and left for the more welcoming Woodchuck hostel.

My main thought was that the only people indicted for sexual misconduct with youthful Boy Scouts has been Boy Scout Leaders just like this guy from Kentucky.

Well, BSA has a lot of rules, and one of them is that adults (besides their parents) can't share sleeping quarters with Scouts. (Parents can only share sleeping quarters with their own boys--they can't share a tent with their own son and another Scout).

That said, it sounds like a big miscommunication between whoever runs "The Place" and the Scout leader. He should have made all of that stuff clear.

[perdidochas]

I believe it is against boy scout policy for an adult to sleep in the same room/tent/etc with a child that is not their own child. Which means that boy scout leaders should not expect to be able to use shelters or hostels. I'd question the wisdom of anyone who would take their troop to spend the night in a flophouse anyway. They clearly brought those kids into a situation they could not control. From what I've seen these scout troops show up and think they own the whole area they occupy. I would have held my ground and refused to leave. You had more right to be there than they did given they put themselves into a situation where they couldn't help but violate their own rules.

As a Scout leader, I can't imagine staying in a hostel with the Scouts. I think we would have found a campground somewhere.

They do have that rule.

[tagg]

I don't normally stay at shelters, but I stopped at Campbell Shelter just north of McAfee Knob a couple of weeks ago on the first night of a long section hike because it had been a long day and I didn't really want to walk any farther. I got there around 7pm, and there were only 5 other hikers there. I set up my hammock in the vicinity, cooked and ate my dinner, and was just settling down for the evening when a Boy Scout troop from VA Beach showed up. I knew the shelter area was likely to be crowded because of where we were, but thought I had gotten lucky until they showed up close to 8:00. There were over 20 kids and adults in the group, and they (very loudly) went about setting up 5 hammocks and 12 tents. No big deal, I expected it to be crowded. What I did not expect was the behavior of the adults. Three wives/mothers who were along for the trip set up fairly close to my hammock, and yelled/cackled/whined/hollered incessantly from the very minute they arrived. One of the adult males snapped off branches and broke down a small tree in order to clear a space for his tent, and repeatedly hollered to get the kids' attention anytime he needed something. When he needed to talk to Jason (who was set up 100 yards from his tent), no problem...he just screamed "JASON" at the top of his lungs until Jason finally walked over to see what he wanted. Another adult asked me if I had any marijuana when he passed me on my way back from the water source, and when I reminded him that he was with a bunch of kids, he laughed it off and acted like he was joking. He clearly was not. It was one thing after another, and since they had arrived so late, all of the noise and inconsiderate behavior went on LONG past dark. But this is why I carry ear plugs, so I put them in and blissfully fell asleep with the chaos around me.

It was very annoying and I would have certainly felt better had I confronted them, however I knew when I set up my hammock near that shelter that this is what I was signing myself up for. My feeling is this...it would be nice if everyone was courteous and respectful of the people around them, but that isn't how things always go. I don't own that shelter or the trees I was hanging on, and if I didn't like it, I could have packed up my gear and moved on. I didn't think it was right or fair, but getting worked up about it was only going to ruin my night, and I go backpacking to decrease my level of stress - not to add to it. You can't control what other people do, just what you do. If you don't like camping near rude people, then do what I did for the next week and a half - don't camp near people. And for those times that you do need to camp near other people, remember that ear plugs weigh next to nothing. Some people are great, and some people suck. Such is life.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I'm an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout Troop (and I have two boys in the troop). We welcome adult youth leaders without kids, albeit we keep an eye out for any kind of grooming behavior (as we do with the adult leaders with boys in the troop).

I will admit, a few years ago, I contemplated getting the kids (and adults) in good enough shape to section hike the AT for a week. After comments on this forum, I don't think I will. I think we will stick to lesser known trails, like the Pinhoti, etc.

You shouldn't let a few mostly anonymous off-the-cuff comments on an internet discussion board dissuade you and your troop from hiking a section of the AT. It would be a great experience for you and your well led and behaved Scouts.

[perdidochas]

You shouldn't let a few mostly anonymous off-the-cuff comments on an internet discussion board dissuade you and your troop from hiking a section of the AT. It would be a great experience for you and your well led and behaved Scouts.

Well, there are plenty of other trails out there--as a troop we've done a few days on the Pinhoti in the Cheaha area, and a few days in the Sipsey Wilderness--we are working our way to becoming a backpacking troop. I will encourage them to think about hiking the AT on their own.

[rickb]

Well, there are plenty of other trails out there--as a troop we've done a few days on the Pinhoti in the Cheaha area, and a few days in the Sipsey Wilderness--we are working our way to becoming a backpacking troop. I will encourage them to think about hiking the AT on their own.

Yea, it would really suck for you guys to run into a church group like that at a shelter.

[BirdBrain]

It would appear from many of the comments that people are not aware of the plight of many a youngster that might be on such an outing. I get the visceral reaction toward church that some have. However, these comments show no compassion for children. Many of these young people come from broken and even violent homes. Many are using gear donated by church members. For many, this is the first time they have ever been taken on a fun adventure. How do I know this? My church runs a camp for these young people every year. We have been raising money and donating gear for the past several weeks to prepare for this year. Be pissed at the adults and their beliefs if you must. But give these kids a break already. Sorry if they don't live up to your standards. I have bit my tongue on several of these posts. It is likely I should have now.

[swisscross]

Yea, it would really suck for you guys to run into a church group like that at a shelter.

Last trip I did in the Cheaha area, (Skyway, Chinnabee, Pinhoti loop) there was a church group at High Falls and two scout groups at the Nubbins intersection.

Take your boys to the AT. Get to the campsite early and have them quite down after supper and into the evening.
I have no issues with groups using shelters. I do have issues with kids playing war around my gear, being loud and rude.

[Majortrauma]

I skimmed this and sure enough, it's a pattern, just takes a few idiots to ruin it for all of us. Mutual courtesy and respect go a long way but when the "adults' are idiots, we can't expect anything different from he kids. It's unfortunate that BSA has turned into what it has which is why my boys are not involved in that among other reasons. Same goes for church groups. More often than not it turns into total jackassery.
Removing the shelters is a horrible idea though and certainly not anything anyone is going to take seriously. IF you don't like them don't use them. It's not a moral issue so big deal.

[MuddyWaters]

BSA rule:

Separate accommodations for adults and Scouts required. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his or her own parent or guardian. Councils are strongly encouraged to have separate shower and latrine facilities for females. When separate facilities are not available, separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted for showers. Likewise, youth and adults must shower at different times.

When travelling as a crew for backpacking, we all slept in the same room . we called up churches and asked for places to stay, always found them. Even crashed a sunday school room once that we didnt have permission to stay at by accident. Mixup.

The intent of the rule is obvious. There is room for common sense. Provide privacy for changing, etc and there is nothing wrong with group sleeping in same room in a church. It doesnt define separate accomodations as having walls between youth and adults. Different sides of a room could be considered the same thing.

The leaders chose poorly to stay at a hostel however with strangers.
They could stay at any church almost by calling and asking.

[Fredt4]

Shelters are not suitable for groups for a simple reason. If the shelter holds 12 and there's 10 in the group, it's highly probable that 3 or 4 individual hikers will get there first. Therefore they need to plan on camping in tents. (So should anyone else.) As noted previously hikers with children should plan on not staying at shelters for valid reasons. But as noted, it's first come and no reservations excepting a few parks.

[squeezebox]

That also calls for not holding space for your friends that aren't there yet.

[ChuckT]

Something that belongs to everybody belongs to nobody. And it's a rare person that is willing to be responsible for something nobody wants.
Groups like the the OP described are far to common on and off the AT. I still have a vivid memory of encountering a Boy Scout troop where one scout was chasing others with a hatchet. Boy Scouts, brrrr!
But the I've been on the AT in the rain and had to "claim" a spot in a shelter to sit down and unpack to move out into the surroundings. I was happy to do that!
Ignorance and obnoxious behavior is all too common.

[vamelungeon]

There are no "unwritten rules" in life. If you get to the shelter first, you get to stay. Why you would want to stay in one of those things is beyond me though. I'd like to see them removed.

[vamelungeon]

I think what some are calling "unwritten rules" are actually manners, and as such since about 1960 something they've become more and more rare, to the point that people don't even know what to call them. I get the feeling sometimes when I am polite with young women they think I am flirting with them, and I'm not. That's pretty sad when good manners are confused with flirting, IMHO.

[illabelle]

It would appear from many of the comments that people are not aware of the plight of many a youngster that might be on such an outing. I get the visceral reaction toward church that some have. However, these comments show no compassion for children. Many of these young people come from broken and even violent homes. Many are using gear donated by church members. For many, this is the first time they have ever been taken on a fun adventure. How do I know this? My church runs a camp for these young people every year. We have been raising money and donating gear for the past several weeks to prepare for this year. Be pissed at the adults and their beliefs if you must. But give these kids a break already. Sorry if they don't live up to your standards. I have bit my tongue on several of these posts. It is likely I should have now.

Good post!

[illabelle]

I've been biting my tongue a bit too. Just wanted to add that we are the stewards of the backcountry. Sometimes it's prudent to withdraw from a situation (if someone threatens you, for example), but failure to confront bad behavior simply yields territory. While we can't enforce the "rules", we can educate, and we should. With respect, diplomacy, and a calm demeanor, of course.