Shelter etiquette question.....I think I got bamboozled :(

[WalkingStick75]

I really do not see the problem here, if the shelter is full.... hike on! Very few places on the AT where you can't get off the trail, out of sight and cold camp. I have taken refuge in a few storms inside the shelters and it was very convenient but I think the AT would be better off without them.

[rocketsocks]

You guys are why I sleep with earplugs.

I have been known to cuss in my sleep.

[Bronk]

This is happening more and more, and you won't do much of a hike without running into it now. The problem is not the kids, it's the leaders who don't care about hikers that aren't part of their group. Often these are families who live a few miles from the trail. You can tell they are local from the huge mess of gear they bring, plus dogs, kids, and elaborate smelly food.

The Boy Scouts can be the worst. I arrived at The Place in Damascus after traveling 18 hrs from Seattle, plus a long car ride from BWI. Nobody was there at 7 pm, but gear was strung everywhere like a bomb had gone off. So we claimed the remaining bunks, paid our fees, and got ready to retire. At 8 pm in comes this huge Boy Scout group from Kentucky. The kids were cool, but the leaders were livid that "hikers" had come in while they were out eating pizza. "We reserved the whole place", we were told. Followed by the proclamation "You can't sleep in a room with little boys!", he yelled.
We (three of us in our late 50's) quietly packed up and left for the more welcoming Woodchuck hostel.

My main thought was that the only people indicted for sexual misconduct with youthful Boy Scouts has been Boy Scout Leaders just like this guy from Kentucky.

I believe it is against boy scout policy for an adult to sleep in the same room/tent/etc with a child that is not their own child. Which means that boy scout leaders should not expect to be able to use shelters or hostels. I'd question the wisdom of anyone who would take their troop to spend the night in a flophouse anyway. They clearly brought those kids into a situation they could not control. From what I've seen these scout troops show up and think they own the whole area they occupy. I would have held my ground and refused to leave. You had more right to be there than they did given they put themselves into a situation where they couldn't help but violate their own rules.

[SouthMark]

Duh. A shelter full IS A GROUP.

[Praha4]

just about every summer AT section hike I've done in north GA, I have run into large church youth groups or Scout groups at AT shelters.... just come to expect it in the summer months. Most of the time they are polite and display a certain amount of maturity, but occasionally I've seen some wild injun behavior too. Personally I hate crowded shelters, and never stay in them. Many of these youth groups seem to view an AT shelter as their own private "clubhouse" or "playhouse" ... with huge gear explosions. It's summer, they probably just got out of school, it's a weekend out in the woods with their friends. My advice to me is avoid the shelter and tent or tarp camp away from the monkeys.

[rocketsocks]

I believe it is against boy scout policy for an adult to sleep in the same room/tent/etc with a child that is not their own child. Which means that boy scout leaders should not expect to be able to use shelters or hostels. I'd question the wisdom of anyone who would take their troop to spend the night in a flophouse anyway. They clearly brought those kids into a situation they could not control. From what I've seen these scout troops show up and think they own the whole area they occupy. I would have held my ground and refused to leave. You had more right to be there than they did given they put themselves into a situation where they couldn't help but violate their own rules.

But for the first come first served rule, I agree with this take entirely. The situation comes up every now and again about kids not sleeping with non-approved adults...which is right, but it is incumbent that the scout leader not put the kids in that situation by bringing them to a place they have no control over....scouts should sleep in tents anyway, isn't that part of the fun of camping out, always was for me? I think it's the leaders who may not want to sleep in a tent. Now as far a church groups...well, it's be discussed.

[Bronk]

Generally speaking, aside from the above example of a boy scout troop trying to impose their rules upon people not a part of their group, I'm not sure I understand why some feel that groups have less right (or etiquette) to use shelters or camping areas. When 10 thruhikers show up at a shelter is that not a group? Many of them travel together for extended periods of time and move and function like any church group or boy scout troop. Two days before Trail Days I encountered a group of more than 30 thruhikers who were flip flopping into Damascus for Trail Days. I think you just have to accept the fact that some times are going to be more crowded than others, and that the more people you get into one area the more commotion there is going to be...and if you don't like it you can keep walking. I've hiked all day in the rain and all night in the dark...and if you're on a long distance hike you should expect to do that once in awhile. Sometimes its just better to move on. To give a perfect example...when I was in college we had this really nice gazebo on campus by a huge lake...I stopped there to eat lunch one day and was seated at a picnic table when all of the sudden a bus pulled up and 60 kindergartners filed out and the teacher brought them into the gazebo and sat them all down and pretty much just looked at me like I wasn't supposed to be there. I picked up the remainder of my lunch and left. It was a crappy deal, but what else was I supposed to do? Sit there amongst her class and finish my lunch? Ask them to leave? Yep, I was there first, but their sheer numbers forced me out. Sometimes that's just life.

[rocketsocks]

Generally speaking, aside from the above example of a boy scout troop trying to impose their rules upon people not a part of their group, I'm not sure I understand why some feel that groups have less right (or etiquette) to use shelters or camping areas. When 10 thruhikers show up at a shelter is that not a group? Many of them travel together for extended periods of time and move and function like any church group or boy scout troop. Two days before Trail Days I encountered a group of more than 30 thruhikers who were flip flopping into Damascus for Trail Days. I think you just have to accept the fact that some times are going to be more crowded than others, and that the more people you get into one area the more commotion there is going to be...and if you don't like it you can keep walking. I've hiked all day in the rain and all night in the dark...and if you're on a long distance hike you should expect to do that once in awhile. Sometimes its just better to move on. To give a perfect example...when I was in college we had this really nice gazebo on campus by a huge lake...I stopped there to eat lunch one day and was seated at a picnic table when all of the sudden a bus pulled up and 60 kindergartners filed out and the teacher brought them into the gazebo and sat them all down and pretty much just looked at me like I wasn't supposed to be there. I picked up the remainder of my lunch and left. It was a crappy deal, but what else was I supposed to do? Sit there amongst her class and finish my lunch? Ask them to leave? Yep, I was there first, but their sheer numbers forced me out. Sometimes that's just life.

It absolutely is, always been my contention as well, and it's organized w/ kick off party, fed along the way and revered in the end. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy in the things we do.

[BirdBrain]

I have been known to cuss in my sleep.

I do worse. I steal blankets. However, since I am sleeping alone and wearing earplugs, I don't foresee any problems.

[Harrison Bergeron]

What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

If the storm had been a serious threat to your safety, then as a fellow human being (not a mere thru hiker), you have a right to be welcomed into the safety of that publicly-provided shelter even if the people that got there first are stacked like cord wood. You don't even need to ask, you just find a spot to stand until the danger is passed. Then you leave and set up your tent elsewhere.

But you have no claim whatsoever on space in that shelter just for your own convenience. It's first come first served, and the fact that you're hiking 2150 miles instead of 5 is about as relevant as your shoe size. Personally, I'd rather see the space used by a bunch of kids, anyway, if that's what it takes to get them away from their damned video games for a weekend.

[Drybones]

No whining!

[Lone Wolf]

What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

If the storm had been a serious threat to your safety, then as a fellow human being (not a mere thru hiker), you have a right to be welcomed into the safety of that publicly-provided shelter even if the people that got there first are stacked like cord wood. You don't even need to ask, you just find a spot to stand until the danger is passed. Then you leave and set up your tent elsewhere.

But you have no claim whatsoever on space in that shelter just for your own convenience. It's first come first served, and the fact that you're hiking 2150 miles instead of 5 is about as relevant as your shoe size. Personally, I'd rather see the space used by a bunch of kids, anyway, if that's what it takes to get them away from their damned video games for a weekend.

awesome

[thecyclops]

What's etiquette got to do with it?? OP, you're just bitchin' because you wanted to use the shelter and somebody else got there first. This is why you carry a tent.

If the storm had been a serious threat to your safety, then as a fellow human being (not a mere thru hiker), you have a right to be welcomed into the safety of that publicly-provided shelter even if the people that got there first are stacked like cord wood. You don't even need to ask, you just find a spot to stand until the danger is passed. Then you leave and set up your tent elsewhere.

But you have no claim whatsoever on space in that shelter just for your own convenience. It's first come first served, and the fact that you're hiking 2150 miles instead of 5 is about as relevant as your shoe size. Personally, I'd rather see the space used by a bunch of kids, anyway, if that's what it takes to get them away from their damned video games for a weekend.

1st I was not bitching...well about the heathens running around,but kids are kids...
2nd,suck on this
"Hikers may occupy them on a first-come, first-served basis until the shelter is full. They are intended for individual hikers, not big groups. If you're planning a group hike, plan to camp out or to yield space to individual hikers who may not have the resources you do."

[thecyclops]

That^^^^ is from the ATC website.Not only was it a big group,the took almost 2 zero days there...Again,not bitching,just figuring out how this stuff works.I can see from the responses that many here are smarta$$es and many dont care for"rules"....But whatev's.

[BirdBrain]

That^^^^ is from the ATC website.Not only was it a big group,the took almost 2 zero days there...Again,not bitching,just figuring out how this stuff works.I can see from the responses that many here are smarta$$es and many dont care for"rules"....But whatev's.

Many of the smartasses here are trying to answer the question. You don't like the answer. Be prepared to sleep outside a shelter and the issue goes away. Be prepared for the fact that life is not fair and you can't fix the other guy. It does not matter if the other guy plays by the rules if you are prepared for that reality. The pertinent reality here is that no one has a guaranteed right to shelter space while on the trail. Carry a shelter. Don't be concerned about if someone else is following some convenience rule.

[rickb]

To my way of thinking, having a very clear understanding of the accepted etiquette, as well as the actual rules/regulations along the trail (and knowing the difference) can help one deal with these kinds of situations. Usually, just by rolling with things -- but not always.

Its not bitching to ask about the church group's decisions or even to have an opinion on it.

Edit: In this specific case I think it is OK to bitch a bit, however.

[thecyclops]

Asking question in regards to the shelter rules,etc,yes I was...
Bitching about the heathens watching me wipe my mudbutt and playing war a foot and a half from my tarp shelter,yes I was...
I was not bitching about the group,but seeing as how the ATC says they were in the wrong,then maybe I should?
Next time they are getting the old "drop a few batteries in their campfire treatment".

[Eagle1979]

shelters are first come, first served. NOBODY gets preferential treatment. especially thru-hikers

Ahem . . .

On the ATC webpage considering shelters

A typical shelter, sometimes called a “lean-to,” has an overhanging roof, a wooden floor and three walls. It is open to the elements on one side but will usually keep you dry. Most (but not all) are near a creek or spring, and many have a privy nearby. Hikers may occupy them on a first-come, first-served basis until the shelter is full. They are intended for individual hikers, not big groups. If you're planning a group hike, plan to camp out or to yield space to individual hikers who may not have the resources you do.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/camping-shelters

[SouthMark]

...they are intended... not reserved. Big difference.

[BirdBrain]

Bitch in one hand, prepare in the other. I will take the prepared hand. Bitching about the other guy never remedies the problem. Remedying the problem should be the goal. The problem is fixed if you grasp the fact and are prepared for the fact that you might not have space in a shelter. If that is unacceptable, stay home. Okay... I have beat this one to death. Moving on...