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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin
    Speaking ONLY for myself, while I that Wook has presented a strong case, I do not at present wish to have any of my information "for sale." I realize that folks can still get it for free by accessing the website, but right now I'd rather not be in the position of "selling" my stuff, even for a good cause.

    ....

    Alternative idea: Rock and Troll can tell us what it costs to keep the site going, and once we get an actual figure, we can ALL start whittling it down with contributions. After all, if we could get Miss Janet a new furnace in little over a week, I'm sure we could pull things together for Whiteblaze.
    I feel the same way Jack does. I'd rather not sell what I write for the aid of others. If people want to buy something, let them donate.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris
    I feel the same way Jack does. I'd rather not sell what I write for the aid of others. If people want to buy something, let them donate.
    If they bought it, it would be a "donation", to White Blaze.

    Most backpackers do not spend the amount of time we do on the internet.

    As the system is now, they can do what you say. But obviously there are funding challenges to be met.

    They wouldn't have to pay for a computer, a web provider, or the jading experience of sitting in fornt of a computer to learn about backpacking in nature.

    I respect what you and Jack say, but I just think the great info you guys and many others provide only hit a very small percent of the people out there.

    I talk to many backpackers all the time, and very few have ever heard of whiteblaze.

    But if you want to save it for the net folks, I understand.
    www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean

  3. #23
    Registered User LIhikers's Avatar
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    An e-mail list I'm on about another subject had a similar idea. To pick out the best posts, compile them by topic and make them available for sale to help support the costs of operating the server. As it turns out, the legality of the thing seems to be that each poster "owns" the copyright for their own posts and must give permission for their posts to be distributed. That is unless each poster agrees before hand to a policy that their posts become the property of the owner of the website. I imagine the same thing would apply here. In the end, on the other list, the writtings of one well respected member, who gave permission, were compiled and sold on a CD.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIhikers
    An e-mail list I'm on about another subject had a similar idea. To pick out the best posts, compile them by topic and make them available for sale to help support the costs of operating the server. As it turns out, the legality of the thing seems to be that each poster "owns" the copyright for their own posts and must give permission for their posts to be distributed. That is unless each poster agrees before hand to a policy that their posts become the property of the owner of the website. I imagine the same thing would apply here. In the end, on the other list, the writtings of one well respected member, who gave permission, were compiled and sold on a CD.
    Yes, certainly copyrights should always be honored. If Chris and Jack don't want to do it, I'm sure other authors might be willing.

    I see nothing wrong with an author saying no. It's their right and theirs only.

    But it would be nice for Whiteblaze to publish such a volume, to help meet costs. Thankfully, there are plenty other capable authors. Warren Doyle, for instance, could provide insights on the AT that few could.
    www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean

  5. #25
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    Just so everyone is clear about it, I'm more than happy to give away, free of charge, what I write. I just don't want people to have to pay to get it. However, I suppose that if it was freely available here and there was an option to buy a printed copy, that would be ok. Sort of like the Companion.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris
    Just so everyone is clear about it, I'm more than happy to give away, free of charge, what I write. I just don't want people to have to pay to get it. However, I suppose that if it was freely available here and there was an option to buy a printed copy, that would be ok. Sort of like the Companion.
    That's exactly what I'm saying. The point is to do two things: get the writing our there for people who don't get on-line, raise money for WB operations.

    I never imagined anything would be "pulled" just because it's in print.

    But print costs money (like the website does). So there would be a charge, with a little royalty to WB to keep the FREE versions going, and the increasing bandwidth needs met. Think newman/redford.

    Do you think this site would have happened without Bryson's book? Or be as popular?

    Time to think ahead!

    Also, I am writing a book about my west coast hike. Does this mean I pull all my completely free journals from my site? Of course not! But I know damn well that most people in thos site do not sit down and read trailjournals because reading a computer screen is what most people try to get away from after work.

    I have a mission to inspire the designation and protection of trails and scenic lands. I will not restrict myself to do this to people who may say it's "selling out" to provide a hardcopy of the adventure. I will use every tool possible to reach as many people as possible. I suggest WB do the same for its goals and mission.
    www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean

  7. #27
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    Wook, this is a good idea. Whiteblaze can have the rights to all my posts (and if I ever say anything important that could actually be used, they can have the rights to that, also). As far as my posted photos, they can use them, but, I want to be able to use them, too.

  8. #28

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    What value do you place on AT Troll's time? In my job (lawyer), I am often asked to evaluate business opportunities. I often see people making the same mistake you have made -- they don't consider the value of the time consumed in the venture.

    You have proposed an idea that might yield a positive cash flow if AT Troll's time isn't worth anything. That isn't a valid assumption. When one considers the fair value of the time used to edit, copy, inventory, package, mail and deal with customer issues the venture would be very unlikely to yield a profit. Throw on top of that the accounting, sales tax and income tax issues and AT Troll is better off paying the cost of the web site out of his pocket.
    Shutterbug

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shutterbug
    What value do you place on AT Troll's time? In my job (lawyer), I am often asked to evaluate business opportunities. I often see people making the same mistake you have made -- they don't consider the value of the time consumed in the venture.

    You have proposed an idea that might yield a positive cash flow if AT Troll's time isn't worth anything. That isn't a valid assumption. When one considers the fair value of the time used to edit, copy, inventory, package, mail and deal with customer issues the venture would be very unlikely to yield a profit. Throw on top of that the accounting, sales tax and income tax issues and AT Troll is better off paying the cost of the web site out of his pocket.
    Well, he maybe he could get a benovent lawyer to sponsor printing.

    I've already offered to do the editing.

    We're talking Kinkos here

    I wonder how Yogi does it.....

    sales tax? c'mon!

    This is small time, interstate e-traffic.

    But thanks for free legal advice
    Last edited by Tha Wookie; 11-17-2005 at 16:08.
    www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Wookie

    I never imagined anything would be "pulled" just because it's in print.
    That was what I was worried about. Yogi put up a bunch of the info in the spring of 03 and I used it on my thruhike. When she wrote her book, she pulled the info from the journal site. While I certainly understand it, I didn't want that to happen in this case. I'm all for it now.

    Note that Yogi, I think, ends up printing up small batches of the books. Perhaps even one at a time. Very small scale operation that takes some time and capital.

  11. #31
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Without getting into the legal part of it...an easy way to print books for a limited audience would be a "print on demand" service such as cafe press.

    A ~150 page book, for example. would be about $10 base price, add a $5 profit for $15 total per person.

    The advantage is that you do not have to keep stock on hand and the end user place the order through a built in ordering system. Very little overhead for the designer/author/whatever.

    The book may be more expensive initially, but in time saved it is (in my opnion) worth it. Again, esp for such a limited market.

    Just an idea. Again, though. I know NADA of the legal issues.

    An example for a White Blaze user: http://snipurl.com/k087
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  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shutterbug
    What value do you place on AT Troll's time? In my job (lawyer), I am often asked to evaluate business opportunities. I often see people making the same mistake you have made -- they don't consider the value of the time consumed in the venture.
    Amen and AMEN! My experience is the same.

    RainMan

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  13. #33
    Administrator attroll's Avatar
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    Well I hate to burst anyone bubble. But,

    1. I don’t have to time to do anything like this. I don’t think Rock does either.

    2. We can not event get people to order shirts to help raise money how are we going to get people to buy this pamphlet to help raise money.

    As of right now we are all set for money for a long time as long as our prices do not go up. I talked to our server this week and they have agreed to raise our bandwidth to 200gig at not charge. They will take a look at it at the beginning of the year and see how it looks. But the worst case would be that they will charge $5 more for the extra bandwidth.

    You are more then welcome to keep discussing this if you all want to. I am not trying to stop the posting of this thread. I was just simply making a statement and passing along some info at the same time.

    There is always the possibility that some day we will need more money to help pay for our own server. So we still need to keep that in mind.
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  14. #34
    Springer-->Stony Brook Road VT MedicineMan's Avatar
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    Default 'our own server' ????????????

    Seems like that is where we are headed.......so why not post the costs of a WB server and then do the 'Miss Janet' and get it done???
    Start out slow, then slow down.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedicineMan
    Seems like that is where we are headed.......so why not post the costs of a WB server and then do the 'Miss Janet' and get it done???
    There is more to it then just buying a server. I should rephrase that. I should have said before we rent our own server. Here are some facts about servers.

    1. First you can not just buy a server and run it free after you have bought one. If you buy one then you need someplace to park it. This means you have to put it on a rack with other servers. I have checked into this. This is just a pricy if not more then renting your own server. Don’t ask me why. Another thing is you need to make sure that the place where you store it can handle the load you desire.

    2. Renting our own server is not cheap by all means. A very good server would be about $300 a month. So we are looking at $3,600 a year. I would not go with any other company then the company that we are using now. For those that have been on WhiteBlaze from the start know what server issues we us to have and it crashing all the time. Some of that was due to our growth and some was due to lack of server support. So now that we have good support and an excellent company I am very reluctant to switch companies. There is another package for a server that is $100 cheaper I have not looked into yet though and I will look into that when and if we need to. I know a lot of you have wrote and sent me links to the server company’s that you us and have said they are very good in support. I believe you all. They are probably excellent for what you are all using them for. But when it comes down to it. You are not getting the message traffic that WhiteBlaze is getting. You most likely are not using a user data base using MYSQL. There are a couple other programs that get used that most other people that have their own web pages do not use also.

    If we need to do this and spend the money I have though of some ideas to help defer the cost of the monthly fees. Of course I would need to talk this over with SGT Rock. We could rent server space to our members for a minimal fee for there own personal web pages as long as they were not running forums or using MQSQL.

    MedicineMan,
    I would love to do this right now. But right now we have not problem with money with what we have for donations in the bank as long, as we do not go over 200gig a month now. As I posted in the previous post, the worst it might go up is $5 a month in January if we keep it under 200gig. If we can do that then we have enough money to pay for the server for well over one year and more. But I also have some sticks in the fire right now on some thing I am working on and I have talked to SGT Rock about this. This project would increase our users and our traffic on the web site. The down side to this is that it would increase our bandwidth drastically in the future.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by attroll
    Well I hate to burst anyone bubble. But,

    1. I don’t have to time to do anything like this. I don’t think Rock does either.

    2. We can not event get people to order shirts to help raise money how are we going to get people to buy this pamphlet to help raise money.

    As of right now we are all set for money for a long time as long as our prices do not go up. I talked to our server this week and they have agreed to raise our bandwidth to 200gig at not charge. They will take a look at it at the beginning of the year and see how it looks. But the worst case would be that they will charge $5 more for the extra bandwidth.

    You are more then welcome to keep discussing this if you all want to. I am not trying to stop the posting of this thread. I was just simply making a statement and passing along some info at the same time.

    There is always the possibility that some day we will need more money to help pay for our own server. So we still need to keep that in mind.
    Just planting a seed.

    I know what you mean about t-shirts. I have a couple drawers full of Trekking for Children T-shirts. They sound like good ideas, but really, who needs another t-shirt?

    I'd rather have a book about hiking the AT personally

    But I'm not waiting until they sell out before I find other means.
    www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean

  17. #37
    Administrator attroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Wookie
    Just planting a seed.

    I know what you mean about t-shirts. I have a couple drawers full of Trekking for Children T-shirts. They sound like good ideas, but really, who needs another t-shirt?

    I'd rather have a book about hiking the AT personally

    But I'm not waiting until they sell out before I find other means.
    I knew you were just planting a seed and I apreciate it. I am open to any ideas. Like I said, don't let my comment stop this process. Thank You.
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  18. #38
    Springer-->Stony Brook Road VT MedicineMan's Avatar
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    Default not trying to connect the two BUT

    the AT database that was on WB and then was yanked.....that is something that i will pay for and gladly.....if/when there is an AT database on WB, could there be a way to download it after clicking on a PayPal button?
    OK so i got the AT database that was here (thanks to a friend) and its now in my PDA....awesome to have that much info in the palm of the hand....
    Start out slow, then slow down.

  19. #39
    Administrator attroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedicineMan
    the AT database that was on WB and then was yanked.....that is something that i will pay for and gladly.....if/when there is an AT database on WB, could there be a way to download it after clicking on a PayPal button?
    OK so i got the AT database that was here (thanks to a friend) and its now in my PDA....awesome to have that much info in the palm of the hand....
    Yes it could be fixed so that a person could pick a donate button and then have access to the database. This is a very good idea and one to think about. I would have to talk to SGT Rock about this. Here are a couple things to think about on this.

    1. The person who created the database would have to agree to let us set it up that way. Their intent was to share it freely.

    2. If the person did agree to this and if we did do it we would need this person or a committed team to keep this database update every year like they do the ALDHA Companion.

    3. Would this detour users from using WhiteBlaze after we vowed to keep the site free for the sharing of information and not charge for anything. We stated that we would remain non-profit. Which we have to this date. If we created something like you mentioned that we would not be sharing information freely anymore. We would now be charging to get information.

    Here is my opinion on this as if I were not a webmaster:

    I would be a little upset about this being done after WhiteBlaze said it would remain non-profit and are now thinking of charging to get information. I would probably keep using the web site but would be upset.

    That would be my take on it if I were not the webmaster. But I can see where it would help bring in funds to help with cost that may be need in the future.
    AT Troll (2010)
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  20. #40
    Springer-->Stony Brook Road VT MedicineMan's Avatar
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    Default Attroll, I agree but consider this

    the information is free, right here at the site, for anyone to read on-line,,,,but to download the file a donation is made to keep WB up running and free......
    Like I said I got the AT database after it was pulled.....i love having it in my PDA with me everywhere i go.....it would be worth money to me to be able to download it, especially if i could taylor a bit what i download.

    I dont think this violates the WB creed unless we/you/rock restricted the database completely.
    Start out slow, then slow down.

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