Mt Madison (NH) Rescue

[colorado_rob]

How is it a tired argument? It's our job to mitigate risk as best possible, she didn't. A well planned out trip going wrong is one thing, but a poorly planned one into an extreme environment is a different story. It has nothing to do with someone else being willing to risk their life to help you, it's about doing your best so they won't have to. Being stupid is just another form of selfishness in this regard.

How on EARTH do you or anyone on here know she had a "poorly planned" climb? Am I missing a point here? Perhaps there is more information buried on this thread I just haven't seen. Lots of assumptions and Monday-morning quarterbacking, but the facts??????

Yes, still a tired argument. Easy to make for cyber-adventurers.

[Another Kevin]

The only problem with this is that it puts other peoples lives in danger. She pushed the "rescue" button on the PBL. Putting your own life in danger is one thing, then asking others to risk their lives to rescue you is another.

I see it in an entirely different light. Not lighting the PLB would compounding the irresponsibility.

If I don't come back from a trip, they're coming after me. I don't get to make that decision. We go looking for our lost people, because it's what humans do. As soon as I'm in serious trouble, the damage is done. All I can do at that point is try to make their job cheaper and less risky.

The search is much, much more dangerous than the rescue, and many times more costly.

I do carry a PLB when solo, or in deep winter, or on a bushwhack. If I light it, I'm not really saying, 'come help me.' When I don't get back, I know that they'll be coming looking for me whether I want it or not. Instead,, I'm saying 'here I am.' They can then focus on the rescue (or the recovery, if it comes to that) and not on the search. If I'm going to buy the farm on a trip, I'd rather have one SAR party be able to come in and do the recovery than have hundreds of people searching for months, the way they did with Geraldine Largay (or my step-grandfather).

[Tom Murphy]

How on EARTH do you or anyone on here know she had a "poorly planned" climb? Am I missing a point here? Perhaps there is more information buried on this thread I just haven't seen. Lots of assumptions and Monday-morning quarterbacking, but the facts??????
.

She was not prepared for an immobilizing injury in that location and in those conditions. If she had properly planned for that possibility, she would not have died.

[Frye]

How on EARTH do you or anyone on here know she had a "poorly planned" climb? Am I missing a point here? Perhaps there is more information buried on this thread I just haven't seen. Lots of assumptions and Monday-morning quarterbacking, but the facts??????

Yes, still a tired argument. Easy to make for cyber-adventurers.

I'll going to quote myself here.

She shouldn't have been there. At least not alone. I really don't care what the arguments are in her defense, with how this winter has been, she should had at the very least gone with a partner. Even in a normal winter this range has some of the worst weather in the continental US.

I don't care what other info pops up, she was alone in a notoriously hostile environment made even worse by the exceptionally bad winter they've been having up there.

I guess you are missing the point...

Ugh, I really want to respond to the insults but don't feel like being reprimanded by the mods.

Have a good day pal,
Frye

[Tom Murphy]

Perhaps some of those participating in this thread who have put themselves in life threatening situation in the Presidentials could share first hand accounts of how they found themselves there.

This is how I avoided a life threatening situation in the Presidentials.

http://forum.hike-nh.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4636

[O-H-10 Lil Ohio]

TM, Look at the outcome!! I would think that's a poorly planned or executed trip . that's the point !! Look at the outcome it certainly wasn't a successful trip. It's a tragedy that could have been planned better ,that's all I'm saying.

[Another Kevin]

Perhaps some of those participating in this thread who have put themselves in life threatening situation in the Presidentials could share first hand accounts of how they found themselves there.

Not the Presidentials, but Moosilauke. June 1976. Party of four, all fairly experienced hikers, college-aged. We climbed up Gorge Brook, on what was forecast to be a bluebird-perfect day. Dark clouds started to blow in while we were having lunch at the summit. We said, 'uh oh', and started south back to the trail junction, We were in whiteout before we got there. Couldn't see the trail worth a damn. Even stringing out so that each of us could just see the hiker ahead and behind, it was hard to find the next cairn.

We wound up getting into sleeping bags wearing every stitch of clothing we brought, and huddling under a tarp (not properly pitched, just kind of tied around us to try to break the wind and keep the snow off) at the base of a cairn on the lee side. We spent a very uncomfortable few hours, with the occasional ribald remark about the way we were huddling together. During that time, over a foot of snow fell.

Once we could see again, we packed up and managed to posthole down, without showshoes, crampons, or any means of self-arrest. We discovered that we'd gone past the Gorge Brook turnoff when we came to the treeline, and decided just to take the carriage road down to the Snapper trail. There was less chance of a fall on that route, anyway. Gorge Brook is scrambly where it makes the switchback up the headwall. By the time we were on the ski trail, we were hiking by flashlight (nobody had headlamps in those days). We were pretty wet, tired and miserable by the time we were back at Ravine Lodge. There was a dusting of snow down at that level, and none at all in Warren or Glencliff. The next day dawned warm and clear again, and all the snow that had fallen the day before melted, closing the Ravine Lodge road to add insult to injury.

If we hadn't brought sleeping bags and the materials for an improvised shelter - on a summer day trip - we'd have definitely been in a life threatening situation.

No lesson really learnt. We already knew that above-treeline weather can do anything, at any time of year. We had trouble, and we got ourselves out of it. No real way to avoid it, short of "don't hike the Whites."

[Another Kevin]

This is how I avoided a life threatening situation in the Presidentials.

http://forum.hike-nh.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4636

One time that I was on a backpack with my daughter, she decided to abort the trip because she was feeling ill (apparently she wasn't entirely over a bout of Coxsackie virus that she'd had a few days before). She kept apologizing for "being such a coward about it." I told her that she seemed more afraid of messing up my trip or turning back without scoring the summit than she was of getting in trouble. I went on to tell her that facing THAT fear was a much braver decision than simply soldiering on and getting into trouble.

The real mark of a mountaineer is the summits he's prudently turned back from, not the ones he's gained. You're a real mountaineer.

[Havana]

Some more information about the conditions and the plan.

Of particular note:

Hiking alone and in winter can be safe, White said, but there are times when it should be a “no go,” like on Sunday when the winds and cold should have made Matrosova reconsider.

A persistent wind will rob hikers of sense and strength and higher gusts, those above 80 mph, will stop their forward progress entirely, said White. Hikers need to do some mental math, he said, and despite having the best polar gear available, “you are not going to be able to function, you will not survive out in that kind of weather,”

Rick Wilcox, who is the president of Mountain Rescue Services and is White’s business partner, said Matrosova’s idea of a Presidential Range traverse was “an OK plan,” but “she just picked a really, really bad day.”

“Hiking alone in winter is fine,” said Wilcox, adding that “even though the general public perception is it’s suicidal, it’s not at all. On a nice day, under good conditions, we could have brought her down safely.” But on Sunday, he said, “even our best climbers could not get above tree line.”
- See more at: http://www.unionleader.com/article/2....MftyQ4dq.dpuf

I think most people on this thread who are critical of her decision make the assumption that given the forecast for high winds and cold temperatures and the readily available data about the dangers of the mountain that her "plan" to even be on the mountain, much less try an eighteen mile traverse, was a poor one. The correct plan, the only viable plan, would have been to chose another day.

[peakbagger]

3 days later, its bright blue skies 0 degrees with 20 MPH gusts on Washington. I would (and have) gone solo up Madison and Adams in conditions like today. Folks in better condition than I would easily be able to do the intended route over to Washington. It all comes down to picking the day which don't necessarily line up with a long weekend.

[Tipi Walter]

As I always say, Cold Hurts, Wind Kills.

For me, to really understand Kate Matrosova's plight, the Art Davidson winter expedition to Denali in 1967 needs to be studied and duplicated in harsh conditions. Denali is not called the Coldest Mountain without reason.

Art Davidson and two other guys spent 6 days in a tiny snow cave at 18,200 feet with 100mph winds. Six days. With wind chill at -148F.

https://books.google.com/books?id=g8...owcave&f=false

Was Kate prepared for the same? Could she find a leeward side of the ridge and dig in? Could she sit put out of the wind for 4 days? Would Art Davidson have done the same thing in the Whites that he did on Denali? Did Kate have a bag and a tarp?

http://www.adventure-journal.com/201...s-148-degrees/

http://articles.ktuu.com/2011-01-07/...idson_27017036

[Coffee]

It is very possible that she was experienced enough to fully understand that her PLB was going to be used for body recovery, not rescue. Someone with that level of experience probably is under no illusions that a helicopter would suddenly appear under those conditions and take her to safety. She might have felt that it would be more kind to loved ones to trigger the PLB so that closure could be brought to the situation more quickly.

Rescue crews are made up of heroes but I don't think anyone expects them to be suicidal. The assumption has to be that they will not put themselves in imminent peril foolishly. Otherwise, no one could ever use a PLB with a good conscience.

Sympathies to the family of the young woman.

[Wülfgang]

I'm always amazed and disgusted at the amount of armchair-quarterbacking seen after a tragic wilderness accident. Maybe it's just the nature of a forum that brings out people's opinions, but have some respect for the victims.

It's criminally easy to sit back in our comfy chairs and dissect the scenario from every possible angle, smugly asserting what we would or wouldn't have done, what she/he did wrong, and oh yes, it's oh-so-sad.

Mistakes usually ARE apparent retrospectively, and it's good to learn from them, but dont be so arrogant to think you could never find yourself in a similar dire situation because you are so experienced/smart/equipped/wise, etc. It's backpacking hubris and frankly tempting fate. No one is above a bad judgment call, faulty gear, inclement weather, a physiologic event, or a misstep. Risks can be mitigated but never completely eliminated.

Tragic story. The margin of error in winter moutaineering is so small.

[Wülfgang]

^Not speaking to anyone in particular here, just general thoughts.

[Slo-go'en]

The problem is people plan these hikes based on the date (when can they go) and not based on the weather. You have to be able to wait for the proper weather window to make a winter traverse possible.

When I was Gray Knob winter caretaker, I was forever talking people out of going above tree line in bad conditions. I had one of the coldest, snowiest and busiest winters in memory and didn't loose a single person under my watch, so I guess I did a good job. But back then, pretty much everyone would come up to the Knob first and then do the traverse or bag peaks from there, which allowed me to screen people.

On Presidents weekend (GW birthday back then) I saw two guys with cotton sweatshirts, blue jeans and leather boots come by the cabin. I asked where they thought they were going. They said Mt Washington. I said, you know it's -20 out here and 100 MPH winds up there? Oh, but we have to go, our car is at Pinkham. I said no your not, your going down to route 2 and hitch around as there is no way I'm letting you up there. Finally a group who were dressed in the latest high tech mountaineering gear came by and said they didn't get more then 100 yards above tree line before having to turn around. This finally convinced the poorly equipped guys to listen to reason and head back down to the road.

[Tipi Walter]

I'm always amazed and disgusted at the amount of armchair-quarterbacking seen after a tragic wilderness accident. Maybe it's just the nature of a forum that brings out people's opinions, but have some respect for the victims.

It's criminally easy to sit back in our comfy chairs and dissect the scenario from every possible angle, smugly asserting what we would or wouldn't have done, what she/he did wrong, and oh yes, it's oh-so-sad.

Mistakes usually ARE apparent retrospectively, and it's good to learn from them, but dont be so arrogant to think you could never find yourself in a similar dire situation because you are so experienced/smart/equipped/wise, etc. It's backpacking hubris and frankly tempting fate. No one is above a bad judgment call, faulty gear, inclement weather, a physiologic event, or a misstep. Risks can be mitigated but never completely eliminated.

Tragic story. The margin of error in winter moutaineering is so small.

The reason rescue reports are published are to discuss what went wrong and how to prevent them in the future. Many mountaineering societies publish mishaps for this very reason. NOT WITHOUT PERIL is a whole book devoted to the deaths on Mt Washington.

Outdoorsmen and women discuss these scenarios (see the David Decareaux tragedy in the Ozarks) because they have found themselves in similar situations and lived to talk about it. They can relate. And no one I know who backpacks in the winter thinks they are too experienced or too smart or too equipped or too wise. In fact, Laurence Gonzales in his book Deep Survival declares Humility to be one of the best survival tools---staying humble.

To say "it's criminally easy to sit back" and judge is way out of line. The damage has already been done and it hasn't been done by us but by the mountain, the wind, the cold and by a couple personal choices of an individual on foot. Every winter backpacker and hiker needs to talk about this stuff.

[Wülfgang]

I had a winter trip in 2013 I should have aborted. Came as close to dying as I've ever been. Not physiologically, but circumstantially. Negative temps, wind, altitude...I was in way over my head and pretty damn scared. No shame in ever aborting a trip for safety concerns.

[Wülfgang]

The reason rescue reports are published are to discuss what went wrong and how to prevent them in the future. Many mountaineering societies publish mishaps for this very reason. NOT WITHOUT PERIL is a whole book devoted to the deaths on Mt Washington.

Outdoorsmen and women discuss these scenarios (see the David Decareaux tragedy in the Ozarks) because they have found themselves in similar situations and lived to talk about it. They can relate. And no one I know who backpacks in the winter thinks they are too experienced or too smart or too equipped or too wise. In fact, Laurence Gonzales in his book Deep Survival declares Humility to be one of the best survival tools---staying humble.

To say "it's criminally easy to sit back" and judge is way out of line. The damage has already been done and it hasn't been done by us but by the mountain, the wind, the cold and by a couple personal choices of an individual on foot. Every winter backpacker and hiker needs to talk about this stuff.

You're right, fatal events do need to be discussed. Once the mistakes are elucidated though, let that dog lie. It seems like people will just rehash it over and over and over all the while playing that deceptive game of mental comfort that it couldn't happen to me because ______.

[Driver8]

How on EARTH do you or anyone on here know she had a "poorly planned" climb? Am I missing a point here? Perhaps there is more information buried on this thread I just haven't seen. Lots of assumptions and Monday-morning quarterbacking, but the facts??????

Yes, still a tired argument. Easy to make for cyber-adventurers.

If you read the New Hampshire news media reports, which include interviews with rescue officials, and check in on the FB White Mountain hiker pages, where an S&R responder has shared some info and others have posted pics and video, it's become pretty clear she had a poorly planned hike and was insufficiently equipped for a good weather winter hike from Appalachia trailhead over the northern Presi's and past Washington:

* No snowshoes
* No sleeping bag
* No bivy sac or tent

She barebooted it up the Valley Way in sub-zero, very windy, increasingly windy conditions. Had to have been whiteout by the time she got to treeline.

All very unfortunate, especially in the worst conditions up there in many a winter.

[futureatwalker]

Tragic story. The margin of error in winter moutaineering is so small.

My condolences to this woman's husband and family.

I think part of the issue is the margin of error. For the sake of argument, let's say you are young, incredibly fit, and reasonably well-equipped. Under good conditions, the risk is probably not that great.

But under bad conditions, the risk increases dramatically. Worse, if you are on your own, you are probably truly on your own on the top of the mountains, as no one else will be there. Then, a simple difficulty, for example turning an ankle, becomes a life-or-death situation.