Baxter State Park AT concerns - Wow

[bangorme]

Along those lines Dogwood, and not to take away the accomplishments of section hikers, what about the possibility of making a distinction between a 2000 Mile Certificate for section hikers, and a 2000 Mile Thru-Hiker certificate/patch for thru hikers. Both are accomplishments to be sure but require different degrees of logistics and/or commitment. Both should require registering with the ATC

Yeah, one requires a job, the other precludes one.

[MuddyWaters]

Along those lines Dogwood, and not to take away the accomplishments of section hikers, what about the possibility of making a distinction between a 2000 Mile Certificate for section hikers, and a 2000 Mile Thru-Hiker certificate/patch for thru hikers. Both are accomplishments to be sure but require different degrees of logistics and/or commitment. Both should require registering with the ATC

If someones main reason to hike 2185 miles is to get a patch or certificate , I feel sorry for them.

There is no such thing as a pure thru hike. You cant define whats acceptable and whats not. Other than possibly in a certain amount of time which USUALLY indicates unbroken effort, but not always. People leave , go home, attend weddings, take mini vacations with significant others, etc and come back all the time. Some can take 2 mos off out of 6 and still make it with time to spare. All thru hikes are just section hikes strung together. Yes, its more taxing mentally and physically without recuperation time.

The ATC has the right idea today. Stay out of a fray like that.

[grumps]

Was not saying that is the reason for hiking MuddyWaters, just a thought that it may help increase involvement in the ATC which is the direction I felt Dogwood was taking with his statement. Sorry if you took it differently.

[grumps]

I think one of the problems would be for the ATC to define thru-hiker. To some it means end to end passing all the white blazes. Some may disagree when it come to one direction, slack-packing, flip-flopping, or whether all the white blazes are necessary if you walk from Ga-Me (blue-blazes count in some eyes) and how long it takes.

With 2000-miler it's all the white blaze, any direction, any time.

True Sly, guess I hadn't thought about it in quite that frame of mind. Good Point.

[jimyjam]

Outside of all the problems Baxter State Park is having...I have one big question come to mind. If Baxter State Park has been concerned about the traffic within their park due to the Appalachian Trail hikers why on earth would they allow National Geographic Channel to record in their park and more importantly on top of Katahdin to advertise it as the Northern Terminus to the Appalachian National Scenic Trail? Did they not think this National Geographic documentary on the Appalachian Trail highlighting their beautiful park would encourage people to come hike the Northern Terminus? I believe there was a sizable group on the summit of Katahdin on the day they taped!
If you haven't seen The National Geographic's The Appalachian Trail you should! Netflix has it from time to time.



Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!

[Dogwood]

Along those lines Dogwood, and not to take away the accomplishments of section hikers, what about the possibility of making a distinction between a 2000 Mile Certificate for section hikers, and a 2000 Mile Thru-Hiker certificate/patch for thru hikers. Both are accomplishments to be sure but require different degrees of logistics and/or commitment. Both should require registering with the ATC

FWIW, IMO, the way the ATC defines the requirements for a 2000 mile Certificate has been well thought out. I personally wouldn't want a greater fostering of special recognition for AT thru-hikers anymore than it already has become. It has become ridiculous treating AT thru-hikers as some kind of reality(irreality?) TV celebrity group. Don't fool ourselves. MANY AT thru-hikers/thru-hiker wanna bees are attracted by that very doting attention bestowed upon them as group.

[Dogwood]

Outside of all the problems Baxter State Park is having...I have one big question come to mind. If Baxter State Park has been concerned about the traffic within their park due to the Appalachian Trail hikers why on earth would they allow National Geographic Channel to record in their park and more importantly on top of Katahdin to advertise it as the Northern Terminus to the Appalachian National Scenic Trail? Did they not think this National Geographic documentary on the Appalachian Trail highlighting their beautiful park would encourage people to come hike the Northern Terminus? I believe there was a sizable group on the summit of Katahdin on the day they taped!
If you haven't seen The National Geographic's The Appalachian Trail you should! Netflix has it from time to time.

Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!

I don't see it contradictory at all or with BSP's mandate. I don't believe BSP management sees BSP as something that needs to be hidden away under a basket reserved for only a select group. It's open to all if abiding legally managed through a fixed capacity model. Humans need to absorb that into their thick human centric AT CENTRIC skulls. Simply, ALL things do not revolve around the AT and the AT community. ALL humans doing as they ALL desire IS NOT sustainable. GRASP THAT. As others have said here, and I agree with, BSP is seeking to get a better handle on the AT crowd possibly by instituting some kind of AT permit/quota system for walk-ins. They are putting the ball ball back on our side of the court SINCERELY HOPING THE AT COMMUNITY WILL TIMELY AND ADEQUATELY ADDRESS THEIR CONCERNS THROUGH BETTER MANAGING THEMSELVES. BSP has patiently taken this stance communicating their concerns overall very well by my accounts over many years. They are here to work with the AT but the AT community needs to understand BSP is NOT just their for the AT community. Likewise the same goes for the AT through GSMNP, SNP, The White Mountains, trail towns, etc. GRASP THAT.

[Dogwood]

I notice some hostility on this thread towards BSP, BSP management, the people of ME, etc here on this thread. Some are looking for a conflict when it's quite obvious to me BSP is reaching out seeking to clearly communicate and patiently cooperate with the AT community - BUT NOT NECESSARILY AS A SUBSERVIENT TO THE AT COMMUNITY. The AT community needs to grasp, hopefully in its entirety, there is NO AT without massive cooperation, communication, and dedication among MANY. It seems some people just aren't accustomed to getting along with others being in their self absorbed little worlds thinking that's what's real.

[One Half]

I would suggest that we 'self police' this coming season. Adhere to camping regulations. Don't drink alcohol and use drugs in the open, especially on the summit. Be good stewards of the park and it's services. Make your reservations early if you can. Make sure any family meeting you for summit day know they need to make their reservations early or stay elsewhere and use the park just for the day. Don't be a tool!

As far as the park service goes, they should fine as many of the people breaking these rules as possible and then maybe hikers will get the idea that they (we) need to be respectful or we may end up sacrificing our access to this beautiful mountain.

[Coffee]

Hostility, poor behavior, and finger pointing isn't useful in general whether it is thru hikers disregarding the rules of BSP or Maine residents saying that the park is their exclusive domain and that others are unwelcome even if following park rules.

[jimyjam]

First of all if numbers is a concern then inviting more would only add to the problems! And if AT Hikers is a problem why take part in a documentary about the AT? Or Try to use the opportunity to educate(even though they have little if any input in the editting and such) I have all the respect for what Baxter and every other state park forest wilderness etc etc do and provide! What I didn't do is invite you to attack me for having a thought or taking part in a public forum! I am a very respectful person hiking or not. Some people on here really do seem to have an attitude! Dogwood I do not need to grasp anything! I have not been on the AT as of yet to be part of the problem and when I do hike on it I will not be a part of the problem as I will alway be respectful and show respect to the wilderness and people! You act as though you are the police over the hole thing! I only had a question come to mind as I have been following this post. It did not deserve being attacked! Which is what you're doing WHEN YOU YELL at someone! I'm done with the bullying bull crap and childish behavior present in this thread! God help us all if you or anyone else with a hitler type command and attitude gets into the position to make these types of decisions!


Life is full of ups and downs! Hike on!

[Dogwood]

As an aside Jimmyjam, I want to mention that even though you may not see a Netflix event specifically advertised as available under the previews if you search for titles there is a library of possible choices far beyond what are in the previews. Think about it. If Netflix didn't do that you likely would never get through the Documentaries section alone.

[Dogwood]

Jimmyjam, these are just my opinions and thoughts just as you have a right to voice yours. My above post began by specifically addressing your comment but as you read on it should be noted it wasn't just written to you or about you. It was written to everyone so don't take all of it as a personal attack totally regarding your comments. It wasn't a personal letter or email addressed to you. Disagreeing is a good thing. I disagreed with you about something. You disagreeing with me is good. We should welcome that especially when we open ourselves up to it on a largely opinion based public website. It's what happens.

FWIW, I certainly have been made aware of it that I embolden, highlight, underline, capitalize etc some of my comments but PLEASE understand I'm doing that not from a frame of reference of yelling. I'm doing it to emphasize without yelling although that's often the way some people communicate face to face. We can emphasize without yelling can we not? That's what I was doing. What were doing here is not communicating face to face in a personal manner being able to read each other's physiology so I'm emphasizing by doing all these things. It's my way of adding strength to my communication at particular times on ideas I feel most strongly about. It may seem like a nuance but from my perspetive it's not my aim to shout anyone down. That's the way I sometimes communicate here on WB in writing.

[Emerson Bigills]

I agree that financially supporting the BSP by funding a ranger to patrol the summit area during prime thru hiker season would seem to be an option the ATC should consider. The celebrations with alcohol and drugs can wait until out of the park.

I never summitted Katahdin, so maybe I just don't get it, but it would seem that discouraging a large group of family and friends from joining all the thru hikers when they summit might also be a reasonable thing for the ATC and BSP to promote "In Maine, public drinking is a Class E crime, which incurs a fine of up to $100, up to six months in jail, or both."

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...ation-laws.htm

While a $100 fine is ridiculously low (never updated over the years?) and six months in jail is pretty high, I suspect that if BSP threw the book at enough misbehaving thru hikers and some got a few days of jail time, word would quickly spread down the trail that the rangers there don't screw around when it comes to violating the law. Problem would be largely solved. Therefore, unless this is deemed to heavy handed, how would not funding a full time ranger with law enforcement capabilities to patrol the areas frequented by thru hikers not solve at least the problem of misbehavior, if not solving the question of too-high overall numbers?[/QUOTE]

[Coffee]

This topic seems like it has been analyzed to death. If thru hikers could be persuaded to act properly, either based on their own ethical code if possible or through the force of law if not, it's hard to see why most of the issues would not be solved. If everyone in BSP legally camps, then that is a de facto quota for the summit, is it not? Some people may choose to day hike, but BSP also limits the number of cars allowed in. That is also a de facto quota, it seems. Entry on foot for a day hike to the summit and out in one day on foot is probably going to be a lesser chosen route. That's the only legal method I can see if camping is full.

BSP needs to enforce the current de facto quotas and lower them if even that results in use that is unsustainable while throwing the book at law breakers. I'm not sure if the AT position they are advertising has law enforcement capabilities. If not, maybe they should upgrade that position to a ranger w/law enforcement capabilities. That would take money. Maybe the ATC should partially or fully fund that position. If half of the 75% of thru hikers who aren't ATC members become members, that's well on the way to funding a position.

[dangerdave]

In the end, we are all just going to have to get along. It's the only long term solution for a more peaceful and verdant world.

[Grampie]

nobody moons the cog anymore. enough folks got tired of it and some were charged with indecent exposure. baxter needs to start handing out fines to the buttheads

I agree with lone Wolf. Sometimes a example has to be made before folks relize that the rules they are breaking are ment for them.

[egilbe]

Hostility, poor behavior, and finger pointing isn't useful in general whether it is thru hikers disregarding the rules of BSP or Maine residents saying that the park is their exclusive domain and that others are unwelcome even if following park rules.

There's a hierarchy of precedence in respect to Baxter State Park. Wildlife, Maine Residents, all others. Its a State Park with special rules in place so that the precedence is followed. If BSP needs to keep the park in the natural state it is in, what do you think is the lowest hanging fruit to be picked first? When fixing a problem does one not first pick the solution that provides the biggest reward for the least amount of effort? AT thru-hikers are the lowest hanging fruit. According to BSP, they cause the majority of the problems, they provide minimal income and use a large amount of resources in proportion to their numbers. Its a no-brainer to shut off access to The Birches. Four years is plenty of time to provide a solution to a problem that is caused by the AT community.

[Sly]

I think I read of the meeting between BSP and the the ATC on 12/15, I'd be curious as to the outcome or if anything was decided.

[Lone Wolf]

There's a hierarchy of precedence in respect to Baxter State Park. Wildlife, Maine Residents, all others. Its a State Park with special rules in place so that the precedence is followed. If BSP needs to keep the park in the natural state it is in, what do you think is the lowest hanging fruit to be picked first? When fixing a problem does one not first pick the solution that provides the biggest reward for the least amount of effort? AT thru-hikers are the lowest hanging fruit. According to BSP, they cause the majority of the problems, they provide minimal income and use a large amount of resources in proportion to their numbers. Its a no-brainer to shut off access to The Birches. Four years is plenty of time to provide a solution to a problem that is caused by the AT community.

agree..........