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  1. #41
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chair-man View Post
    OK, so I did this and as it turns out I'm wearing out the outside of my heels more than the rest of my sole. An internet search of shoe wear says I have supination . It's only on the heel, the rest of my sole is wearing evenly. It's said to be not that uncommon and not a real problem.

    If your wearing out the inside of your soles it's called pronation. Learn something everyday.

    Here's a couple of photos of the bottoms of my La Sportiva Wildcat trail runners.
    Bottoms
    Attachment 28899


    The heel
    Attachment 28900


    I'm just going to have to make a conscious effort to land on the center of my heel when I'm walking.
    And now it's my turn to direct you back to previous posts

    Supination and pronation are something that you should visit a good running store (or three really) to get "diagnosed" I say that in quotes because it isn't really an issue for most people, just a fact of life. It's also something worth getting a few opinions on. My general understanding as an untrained person- you stand in a neutral stance and your ankles either pitch in or out from neutral.

    You may have heard the terms "neutral" and "stability" when shoe shopping. Neutral refers to a shoe with no corrective measure, Stability refers to a shoe that has various rubber composites or other structural features to support or counter act an issue like pronation or supination.

    That said- back to the previous posts...
    The woods walk is about a forefoot or midfoot placement to increase balance. Re-read some of the info and pics I posted about walking.
    Even if you disagree with the medical part of heel strike vs midfoot or forefoot strike- Kephart's original observation that the very small heel is a poor surface to land on. Especially as to land on the heel requires it to be thrust out beyond your center of gravity. if it slips- you slip with it. The midfoot strike forces your body to land with your center of gravity over your whole foot- all force is downward. You can stand on a banana peel quite easily, but you can't heel strike onto one while in motion.

    Stand with your feet together and pick one foot up- a slight shift of the hips will let you balance, hardly anything in your body will move. Next stand with one foot 6" forward, and try to stand on the forward foot. Hard without a full weight shift back to the original position. Now put your heel out 8" and try to stand on that- it don't work.

    If you were only supinating- you would see wear across the whole outside edge of your shoe- not just the heel.

    However if you were town walking with heel extended and toes pointed outward- you would see the wear pattern you have shown. That's what I see in your shoe. No wear in any area except your heel. No wear evenly on the heel because your toes are out, rather than pointed inward or neutral. Likely if you were to walk in the snow normally you would find your tracks are 12-16" apart at the toes, rather than the 8-10" mentioned when I discussed the width of single track trail. Your heels may fit on the balance beam, but your feet do not.

    That's what I see in your shoes- but take a walk- see what you see. Hit a running store with a qualified salesperson, ask them what they see.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    When Krissy Moehl and Jenn Shelton set out on their JMT record attempt FKT this summer, guess what they were carrying and using? They were several hrs ahead of record pace until Krissy's giardia issues slowed them.

    Not ultra slouches either. Jenn holds the fastest time in a 100 miler of any woman anywhere, and Krissy won the hard rock, regarded as the hardest ultra 100 mile race.

    However, Darcy Africa, 3 time straight woman's hard rock winner did not. she bailed at the sawmill pass trail jct presumeably because she was behind record pace after only 60 miles.

    I would suggest that what is faster, depends on the terrain. Steep downhills where your feet slide with every step on gravel, you will benefit from poles. Uneven rocky trail, benefit as well. Wet rocks or slippery, yep. Flat moderate trail, smooth trail, put them in your pack.(or ditch them with your support crew)
    I think PF said it best above, "We see what we want to see or find the example that fits our choice" (paraphrasing)

    Jen was on attempt number 4? And as you say, has a very excellent career, very little of which involves using poles. I'd guess there's more to it, perhaps knee issues plagued her on past attempts, specific terrain issues, etc. It would be interesting to hear she used them on all four tries, or just the final.

    From my understanding- General consensus among Ultra runners is no poles, and in some races they are illegal. Not to say some folks don't use them in the exact way you describe, or that I haven't seen hikers fold them up on the flats either. There are plenty of strong examples on either side of the argument for sure.

    I'm a carpenter, I own fifteen or so hammers. Some of them very specialized and used once a year, one of them I use every day. Different tools for different jobs, each tool important. I own nail guns too- but I'd really suck at using them if I didn't learn to drive nails by hand first. I like to think of myself as a carpenter, not a tool user, a subtle but important difference.

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    Knowing when to use a tool, and how to get the most out of it, is the difference between an expert, and a hack.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Knowing when to use a tool, and how to get the most out of it, is the difference between an expert, and a hack.
    Lookit me, making friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chair-man View Post
    First, let me say I know the best way to get better MPD (miles per day) is to walk longer not faster but I want this thread to be about walking technique / walking efficiency.

    I know my walking pace was a little slow and thought I could improve on it. So, one day I googled "walking faster" and came up with a plethora of web sites and videos dealing with speed walking & racewalking. Now, the only thing I knew about speed walking is how funny people look when their doing it.

    There is one fundamental in speed walking I found quite interesting and that is placing one foot directly in front of the other. I've tried this and it does pick up your pace but for me keeping my balance while doing this takes a little more effort.

    Now, since we're using trekking poles we are essentially Nordic walking. I found it much easier to keep my balance speed walking while using trekking poles.

    The only problem is so much of AT terrain isn't made for speed trekking.

    Basic speed walking video
    Basic Nordic waking video
    There isn't a Nordic speed walking video. Maybe I'll make one.
    I'm really not trying to speed hike I'm just trying to improve my walking technique. I really don't want to be like this guy on the trail.

    Your comments, thoughts tips.
    i average a little over 3 mph when i'm walkin' with a pack. i've never used poles or felt a need to improve my "technique". it's just walkin' after all . some try to make rocket science out of everything

  6. #46

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    some try to make rocket science out of everything

    ...the science of walking? I've seen monthly magazines titled 'Walking.' Same with books. They went too far for my tastes.

    I'm guilty as charged making things seem more complex than perhaps absolutely necessary too though. I think it good, in most ways, that I did analyze things so deeply in that it gave me a better understanding in a larger context. Now, I'm at the stage where I feel I don't have to analyze so much so deeply when it comes to backpacking. It's can be a bad habit to over analyze especially when caffeine is involved.

    I think you can be right Lone Wolf we can over analyze. It's so good to get out of your head and just flow when backpacking. I've learned to let go of this overwhelming mistaken notion that I need to, or even can, know all things. I've joyously habituated myself that uncertainty can be very good indeed.

  7. #47

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    Yes, I'll admit that sometimes I over do it in analyzing how I run and I'm doing it again today, why? I don't know, but just feel compelled... I'm going to the beach and run a various natural strides of mine and measure them and look a little closer at the foot strike. Been watching some videos and it got my curiosity up some, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJWPwVF30yo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFxPlUKrZPQ

    BTW, WRT Supination and pronation, I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's not as if your foot needs to be stiff as a board as it lands. It's only natural that supination and pronation happen, although I know for some it can be a problem, but generally it's just natural. However, WRT walking I know even less about it.

  8. #48

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    Let's not forget that efficiency and speed are not usually achieved in a haphazard way. Analysis is customarily part of that achievement. That is what this thread topic is about, is it not?

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    my "inquiring minds want to know" question is -- how likely is it, even with lots of effort and attention, for anyone to actually change their gait? not to make this personal, but, say someone has been walking for 63 years already (minus some crawl time, I suppose). Any reason to hope for success in the gait-improvement search? Just as with the pole length controversy (well, at least for me that also is a controversy with great discussion called for) real data would be welcome in an answer! Even personal experience comments -- anybody out there actually change the way that they walk?

    Shameless plug for the annual leave no hiker behind winter trek: I'm pretty sure (insert emoticon of fingers crossed and devilish smile) that there will be a walking clinic -- on a frosting of snow!!!
    Lazarus

  10. #50

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    I can't speak to a walking gait, but after a running injury a few years ago I did some research into possible causes and discovered that my heel strike was almost certainly the primary factor. It took a couple of months to become completely instinctive, but now it feels dead wrong not to land with my weight towards the mid foot. Given enough retraining, adjustments in stride/gait are certainly attainable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebJ View Post
    I can't speak to a walking gait, but after a running injury a few years ago I did some research into possible causes and discovered that my heel strike was almost certainly the primary factor. It took a couple of months to become completely instinctive, but now it feels dead wrong not to land with my weight towards the mid foot. Given enough retraining, adjustments in stride/gait are certainly attainable.
    Do you have tricks or links to references that helped you change your heel strike pattern ??
    Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, the Trail beckons not merely north and south, but upward to the body, mind, and soul of man.


  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaling Fool View Post
    Yes, I'll admit that sometimes I over do it in analyzing how I run and I'm doing it again today, why? I don't know, but just feel compelled... I'm going to the beach and run a various natural strides of mine and measure them and look a little closer at the foot strike. Been watching some videos and it got my curiosity up some, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJWPwVF30yo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFxPlUKrZPQ

    BTW, WRT Supination and pronation, I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's not as if your foot needs to be stiff as a board as it lands. It's only natural that supination and pronation happen, although I know for some it can be a problem, but generally it's just natural. However, WRT walking I know even less about it.
    Well, I went to the beach and measured my various strides and foot impact and I was impressed with my foot strike; the faster my stride the more my foot seemed to hit on the forefoot; the slower the more it hit midfoot. I could barely see a heel print in the faster strides.

    Running is a lot like cycling; yes, it always comes back to cycling If you attempt to do one stride from a standing position, it's very awkward and difficult, because basically you gotta jump ~5 feet forward from a resting position. So what we do is start off jumping in short strides and slowly build up to our natural stride (which changes as your fitness increases, no conscious effort necessary).

    How is that like cycling, you ask? In cycling we start off in a lower gear (or just slower) because we must overcome the initial resistance to movement and as your momentum builds you change gears to more difficult gearing, because your momentum helps you to turn over those gears. In the same way your forward momentum helps you jump (running is jumping) to a distance that would be a waste of energy if you attempted that with your first stride. So you do switch gears while running.

  13. #53

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    I just remembered another analogy to cycling and this one is more interesting. To increase one’s speed there are two basic methods WRT cycling cadence. 1. Choose a higher gear and pedal slower (more muscle power needed). 2. Pedal faster in a lower gear (more taxing on the aerobic system). The second option seems to be the preferred method, especially since it’s the method adopted by two very accomplished cyclists: Miguel Indurain and Lance Armstrong.

    And with Lance his most feared opponent during his years dominating the Tour de France was Jan Ullrich, who used a much bigger gear and was constantly trying to win a TdF since Armstrong came on the scene. So I guess that settled the question of what’s the best cycling method.

    Interestingly enough, running has two basic ways to improve speed with respect to cadence and it’s referred to as the, gazelle and glider running styles. Gazelles use a bigger gear (to steal a little cycling parlance). Generally speaking Gazelles leap further, but have a slower turnover rate, whereas Gliders take shorter strides at a quicker turnover rate.

    However, it’s conventional wisdom that the Gazelle method is the best (which differs in cycling where it’s considered best to use less muscle power and apply a faster turnover rate). However, the reason it’s considered best method is the same as in cycling: because the top runners (i.e. the Kenyans) use the Gazelle method.

    I’m not sure one is better than the other; rather it’s probably more a question of what fits a particular person best. But the winners write the rules.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    some try to make rocket science out of everything

    ...the science of walking? I've seen monthly magazines titled 'Walking.' Same with books. They went too far for my tastes.

    I'm guilty as charged making things seem more complex than perhaps absolutely necessary too though. I think it good, in most ways, that I did analyze things so deeply in that it gave me a better understanding in a larger context. Now, I'm at the stage where I feel I don't have to analyze so much so deeply when it comes to backpacking. It's can be a bad habit to over analyze especially when caffeine is involved.

    I think you can be right Lone Wolf we can over analyze. It's so good to get out of your head and just flow when backpacking. I've learned to let go of this overwhelming mistaken notion that I need to, or even can, know all things. I've joyously habituated myself that uncertainty can be very good indeed.
    i think you're over thinking not over thinking it
    I'm so confused, I'm not sure if I lost my horse or found a rope.

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    Things come easy to the really good athletes. Gifted ones can get away with poor technique that lesser ones can't. This is why the best athletes seldom make the best teachers or coaches.

  16. #56
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    Laz-
    Well seeing as you've got one foot in the grave already, that's a difficult way to walk and you may wish to change it.
    Much like the adjustable ridgeline is handy, an adjustable pole set likely would be the key to personal experimentation.
    Realistically, once you shake that foot free of it's dirt nap, you likely have another twenty years of walking in you. Though I have a fairly decent instinct that you likely walk along quite well, a good season would be enough to fine polish any burrs stuck on your dirty gals if needed. So a 5% down commitment of your time is likely a sound investment.

    Gait's a tricky term too, most folks don't change that much, but footwork, posture and form may improve if worked on a bit. Mayhap we'll see one fine day in NY... Bit more for ya below as well.

    Steelcut-
    Altra and Merrell have some fair decent videos and general tips for the slop term "minimalist running", which when slowed down to hiker pace is more or less the same as good woods walking. Take it slow. Try a pair of zero or low heel drop shoes- often the heel of a traditional shoe gets in your way. The easiest way to do it without thinking about it much- walk barefoot more often- you figure out pretty quick the forefoot or midfoot walk. Walking on icy stuff is a good test as well.

    PF-
    I fully admit to watching only the first video.
    What I did find interesting for all of us- except for one extreme gentleman Gazelle mentioned- none of the folks were heel striking. For certain the woods-walking form is closer to the glider method, but at the speeds shown, the variance is very subtle. As you note- as overall pace increases stride does as well to an extent regardless. What is the Ironman distance- marathon correct?

    The reason I ask-
    Stride vs. Cadence. It seems to me that as distance increases, the scale tips in favor of cadence and glider motion. I think the marathon distance is a tipping point. At some point steps per minute must yield to distance per step in favor of top speed (MPH) but as MPH tapers in the Ultra or long distance hiking world, we see MPH taper in favor of Miles per Day. The long stride/gazelle combo is more muscle intensive and very much mirrors the way I was taught to run short distance events in HS track. The middle stride/glider combo seems to be the more common practice among the Ultra-runners I have seen.

    Even a bit of "up and down" moving adds up to quite a bit of lost endurance as the mileages piles up. Both Malto and DW mentioned earlier a tendency to vary stride length or step choice to maintain elevation, a concept I adapt as well.

    You're also talking what I think of as "event" based athletic feats. I haven't heard of many marathoners or even ultra runners that do consecutive events in a week, let alone a month. A long distance hiker however does a marathon a day for months on end. Not to discredit those sports by any means, just a caution to keep them in perspective.

    Take it to an extreme example- Ray Way walking was heavily based upon heart rate regardless of terrain. I tend to agree that terrain dictates your stride, and cadence is really the only variable you can modify much. As shown in the extreme example in the video, at some point in reaching for that max stride you must revert(or progress if that's your goal) to a heel strike. I was taught in track that I wanted a big toe push, long leap and a toe kick with the forward foot to give me that extra bit of stride. Basically in short distance events that you only had so many steps to reach the finish, so make em all count. As the distance shrank it felt more like a triple jump than a sprint.

    In the woods that long reach though leaves you out of control of yourself on anything less than good trail. In keeping the feet under the body and landing "toes to nose" your force is lighter as well as straight down, so even on a bit of slippery trail you are much less likely to find your feet skittering away. If you think of a hiking pole- the closer the pole is to "plumb", the better the plant and more reliable it will be. The farther to the side or front you get the more "off axis" your weight is, the more likely it will "kick out".

    The quote in my earlier post about an Indian turned to stone in midstride and remaining balanced always pops into my head on that subject. I think most of us have taken a "half step" as well- when we start to commit to a step but feel that it is no good and do a quick step with little weight commitment to avoid fully planting our weight where it doesn't belong. I call it trail toes, but science calls it proprioception. I think the mindful woods walker hones this sense, and as a result substitutes that for poles to maintain balance.

    Stride is normal (What Laz thinks of as gait I believe) on normal terrain for the most part and is dictated mainly by your body. It can be worked on, but that is the one aspect of walking I feel you are a bit "born with" much more than an inch or two needs pretty specific work- Interesting I think if we are mentioning Swami- as Yoga and Pilates (increased flexibility and joint flow) are the ways one might change it comfortably...

    Some go with the intensive longer step/lunge on an uphill, but most of us shorten our stride and increase cadence or maintain regular cadence (the ray way) to maintain overall effort/heartrate. Down hills are all over the map, and likely your knees, joints and risk tolerance are the first and biggest factors.
    But when footing is good, a glider or loping style may be used which feels like a gazelle style because the trail is falling away as we move forward. On bad footing, very high cadence and tight short steps are common to maintain the best traction via keeping weight directly over the foot. Walking at a 45 to the slope or executing self imposed two step switchbacks happens too.

    I have not ever done so reliably, but I have heard some advice on Ultra Runner's tactics to "attack" down hills, and the few times I've slipped into it a bit it feels very much like a controlled fall- the motion not up or level, but the forward lean increased and a fright inducing free fall motion- the feet tip-toeing just enough to keep you moving horizontally on the trail to keep your body just in front of the point it would "land", your foot falls not steps so much as further pushes to keep you "on the same plane" as the trail but just above it. It reminded me a bit of "bombing" moguls on a ski hill- bouncing, absorbing, minimizing and deflecting contact in favor of speed.

    Speed-
    I also find that a neutral form ends up as a midfoot or fullfoot strike. A true forefoot strike is hard to maintain without a bit of speed, and that my form "fails" a bit at slower speeds, which is ultimately why I enjoy moving quicker than some- it works out better and feels smoother. I think many hikers find this efficient and pleasant as well once the initial work of posture, footwork, and feel are in place. Regardless of your MPH or MPD- walking at peace with yourself and the trail if very fulfilling.


    FWIW-
    It's worth it I think to be a bit mindful of oneself every once in a while during a hike. You can only sing 'she'll be coming around the mountain so many times". A few minutes a hike or even a solid mile of paying attention to yourself can do wonders. You don't really have to think to much about it, especially if you have long walks over a week. You'll likely find your way naturally. A thru hiker would likely master the technique by the time their trail legs have been found, certainly by the middle of the trail.
    It's tough and time consuming though for the more casual hiker who finds themselves "back on the pavement" and quick to fall into town walking habits. If this is you, then a bit more thought than normal is likely needed- only because it's not something you can do every day and must simulate.

    Really though, there are only three good reasons to nerd out on the topic-

    If you care to push the outer limits of FKT's, Personal Records and connection to the trail, where nuances become the name of the game.

    Or if you wish to understand it deeply and completely enough to pass it along to a fellow hiker.

    Or you're just a jackass who types quick.

  17. #57
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    i just spent some time hanging out in a hospital (don't ask) and practiced walking. two questions:

    when your lifted foot moves forward and is about to be put back on the ground, the heel first hit happens for me if i keep my foot at a right angle to my lower leg -- apparently my lifetime habit. if i drop my toe (not a natural move, at least for me) I can land on a flat foot. Should I drop my toe?

    when I extend my foot, I want to get a decent stride length. I get the whole idea of keeping the stride shorter to improve balance, but if i move my hip forward when i move my foot forward i get at least a few inches more stride length. this would have me wiggling my hips forward as i walk. should I?
    Lazarus

  18. #58
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    http://www.altrarunning.com/webapp/w...952#LearnToRun
    good stuff here at their site.

    altra form.png

    Likely this explains it visually.
    Two things-
    You likely are missing the "forward lean"- admittedly a bit tricky at walking pace. But if your body were rigid, and pivoted forward only at the ankle then the angles work out better, in true running you are literally falling forward and catching yourself. Stand rigid and pivot forward from the ankle, eventually you will step forward with one foot to prevent a fall- repeat and you're moving.

    at slower paces- best to think of your foot as a hand. If you grab something off the table you don't reach with the heel of your palm, but out with your fingers. Same with the foot, so yar- at a walking pace you may need to reach with your toes a bit (drop them) since it's hard to pull a true forward lean at walking pace.

    A typical shoe has a 12mm heel, not a lot in a building but a fair bit when talking a 12" shoe. A higher heel tends to catch for me now that I have switched to zero drop shoes- but I used to wear regular tennis shoes too before this latest fad and figured it out. Zero drop helps, but isn't needed. You can always take your shoes off to try the difference- just burn the socks when you leave the hospital.

    On the hips-
    Sai Kephart again-
    "A woodsman, on the contrary, walks with a rolling motion, his hips swaying an inch or more to the stepping side, and his pace is correspondingly long. This hip action may be noticed to an exaggerated degree in the stride of a professional pedestrian; but the latter walks with a heel and toe step, wheras an Indian's or sailor's step is more nearly flat footed. In the latter case the center of gravity is covered by the whole foot. The poise is as secure as that of a rope-walker. The toes are pointed straight forward, or even a trifle inward, so that the inside of the heel, the outside of the ball of the foot, and the smaller toes, all do their share of work and assist in balancing. Walking in this manner, one is not so likely, either, to trip over projecting roots, stones, and other traps, as he would be if the feet formed hooks by pointing outward."

    Since you likely have some nice vinyl tiles handy (unless some architect junked it up with patterned carpet)- the hip roll comes a bit easier as you walk a straighter line. You reach with your toes and since you are crossing over a bit with your foot to keep it on the line, the outside of your forefoot contacts first then rolls to center as you step. It's actually a bit like you might picture stalking an animal- you feel out with your foot first before committing weight. But walking a line breaks you from the heels shoulder width apart geometry and requires a hip roll. Practice a little heel to toe walking and you will feel it in your hips. Some roll out (go sideways first), some simply pivot their pelvis. If you stand on one foot and clench/flex your butt/quads and lock your knee it will pull your pelvis forward and force your non weighted foot backwards.
    (BTW-Did I ever mention how woodswalking makes you fantastic at field sobriety tests?)

    Get the footwork and form down first- easier to do with shorter steps. As you get more comfy with it- reaching with the toes and rolling hips forward increases stride. Cadence (high step rate) seems easier to me to increase pace, the more I force the stride the more I loose the form.

    Happy walking- hopefully everyone is well enough.

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    It's too much for me. I've got far too many other concerns to nerd out of my gate. Come April 1st, I'll be hefting my 25 pound pack, take up my poles, and walk to Katahdin. I'll start out slow, and pick up my pace as I get my legs. I'll grabs some food and supplies along the way, or dropped to me by my lovely wife. I'll take some zero days to chill and recover, hopefully meet some strange/interesting/perplexing people, and have a good time of it all.

    The grams and the gate and the philosophy of it all are none of my concern. I'm walking north...
    AKA "DANGER" AT Thru-Hiker Class of 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerdave View Post
    It's too much for me. I've got far too many other concerns to nerd out of my gate. Come April 1st, I'll be hefting my 25 pound pack, take up my poles, and walk to Katahdin. I'll start out slow, and pick up my pace as I get my legs. I'll grabs some food and supplies along the way, or dropped to me by my lovely wife. I'll take some zero days to chill and recover, hopefully meet some strange/interesting/perplexing people, and have a good time of it all.

    The grams and the gate and the philosophy of it all are none of my concern. I'm walking north...
    that's all there is to it.

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