I put some doubt that this was the real reason for the thread.Originally Posted by MuddyWaters
Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
Woo
I have used the term "feral" loosely, probably too loosely. The dogs that accosted me could well have belonged to local landowners. Not that this distinction mattered much at the time. I live in a place where dogs are not permitted to roam freely. Apparently that's not the case in all locales.
On one occasion the dog was a "pet" but its owner was perfectly OK with his dog harassing and snarling at me as I crossed the road to the trailhead on the other side. Some folks are just rude.
Its never necessary to bring a gun of any caliber on the trail and it terrifies that people think they should. In years of section hiking I've never encountered a snake or dog that needed to be shot on the spot. Walking around the snake and waving a hiking stick at a dog is all I've ever needed to do.
I hate the idea of sharing shelters with people carrying guns.
Seeing the recent report of the woman and her dogs mauled in NC by hunting dogs, makes me rethink guns. Normally I don't carry a gun on the trail, but Kadie was told the dogs that attacked her were "protected" as hunting dogs and the owners would not be charged with a crime, nor be responsible for her expenses. I'd rather drop the dog where he stands than get mauled. Normally I pick up a rock, which I can dr when no longer needed.
A friend of mine has a glock 380. It's a very nice gun, and light. I've used the bodyguard BG380 by ruger, it's a decent, small, light gun but has a sharp recoil. It's hard to shoot a lot without wearing out your hand. I have a walther Pk380, but it's a bit large and heavy. Great gun, shoots well and the recoil is lighter of course.
I haven't shot one, but there are several hammerless airweight revolvers out there in 38 caliber. If I was thru hiking I'd probably want one of those instead... Auto pistols have more parts and are more finicky. Revolvers don't jam, if they don't fire you just pull the trigger again, which is good if you don't shoot much and aren't used to clearing misfires under pressure (I practice with dummy bullets). Also, if you shoot some dog you aren't throwing shell casings all over. The biggest problem I see (besides the extra weight) is rust. You're going to be in the wet, damp, heat/cold, for extended periods. If you don't check the gun often and oil it, it's not going to work when you need it. Even aluminum frames will start to pit and oxidize.
Then there's the legality of it...where can you carry and where is it illegal? A lot of state parks prohibit guns. Odds are unless you use it, no one would know you even have it. But what if you use it? Are you prepared for fines or even jail? Because of my job I'm licensed to carry anywhere except federal buildings, but I often don't. I've only carried twice on a hike, so I'm not a "gun nut".
The biggest question is more of an internal one than anything. Could you bring yourself to shoot a dog or worse, a person, especially when it's going to be just your word against a dead guy about what happened? Questioning whether or not your chosen invisible sky man would approve you shooting something is not something to do when you're lining up the sights on another creature. You need to figure that out before you go gun shopping.
Please don't read my blog at theosus1.Wordpress.com
"I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. Thank God for Search and Rescue" - Robert Frost (first edit).
"The biggest question is more of an internal one than anything. Could you bring yourself to shoot a dog or worse, a person, especially when it's going to be just your word against a dead guy about what happened? Questioning whether or not your chosen invisible sky man would approve you shooting something is not something to do when you're lining up the sights on another creature. You need to figure that out before you go gun shopping."
This is always the big question for me. I'm not against guns, but I wouldn't keep one in my house and I don't want them on the trails. My brother is an Army vet who owns a number of different guns. Unfortunately through his military service he has used guns for what they are intended to be used for. It something that never leaves him. Anyway, the topic of guns on the trail is something him and I talk about a lot. The one point he makes over and over again is when you decide to use a gun, you can't guess wrong. Meaning, deciding to pull that trigger has enormous consequences to you, the person or animal your pointing at and anyone else around. Other than the "intended" consequences of giving someone or something a bad day (or worse), there are legal consequences and physiological consequences you need to be prepared to deal with.
I grew up with hunters and members of the military in my family. I have 0 issue with responsible gun ownership. I just don't think the AT is the place for them.
My understanding is that the dog owners have not yet been identified, and while they may very well not be charged with a crime, I think they would likely be on the hook for damages in a civil lawsuit.
"That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett
True, but if the Sheriff's dept. has no intent to investigate, it's likely the owners will never be identified, making it hard for Kadie to FILE a lawsuit.
Please don't read my blog at theosus1.Wordpress.com
"I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. Thank God for Search and Rescue" - Robert Frost (first edit).
And having now read the state statute http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascript...l?Chapter=0067 , yeah, she may be screwed. I notice that there is a large movement afoot to change NC hunting dog laws (which basically indemnifies dog owners) due to this and other incidents. How an owner is not responsible for his dogs injurious actions simply because they are engaged in hunting is beyond my grasp of any "reasonable man" standard.
"That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett
Snakes - Don't handle them, don't step on them, nudge them aside with a trekking pole if and only if absolutely necessary.
Dogs - A whack across the snout with a trekking pole will send one running.
Bears - The most I've ever seen of a bear on the trail is a bear's rear end rapidly disappearing into the underbrush.
Guns - Not necessary to dealing with the above three threats. And it's none of your business what's in my pack.
I always know where I am. I'm right here.
Please don't read my blog at theosus1.Wordpress.com
"I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. Thank God for Search and Rescue" - Robert Frost (first edit).
And on that note- twice I wanted to shoot a snake, but they were in my backyard, not on the trail. I would throw a stick at it and let it go on it's merry way. Bears- not enough experience having bears come up to me outside of a hunt. As for dogs, I have twice had people's dogs come at me, lunge after me baring teeth, or lunge towards my dog. The only thing that stopped them was the fact that (thank God) they were leashed. Had they not been leashed, may have resulted in a thrashing with a hiking pole or stick or something. In light of bear hunting season in the south, and the recent events with hunting dogs, I'd say that I'd be verey wary my next time out.
Fortunately my experiences with animals (domesticated or otherwise) on the trail have been positive 98% of the time.
Last edited by Alligator; 10-26-2014 at 22:26. Reason: Quoted post removed.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
I have a Kel-Tec P32 that runs like a champ, sadly though it seems that Kel-Tecs either run or they dont. Its ashame because they are so affordable.
igne et ferrum est potentas
"In the beginning, all America was Virginia." -William Byrd
I'm not too worried about snakes, coyotes, or feral dogs. Well I am a little worried about snakes.
I once had an encounter with a burmese python in Southern Indiana as an 18 year old. I suspect it hitched a ride up the Ohio River on some commercial river barge traffic. I would say both the snake and I were fairly close together in body weight. We were evenly matched at about 120 pounds each I think. When I first saw that snake it was coiled into about three and a half or four loops; one loop on top of the other and each coil was slightly overlapping the other but with some spill over here and there around its entire circuit. Some parts of the coils of the various layers were resting on the ground other parts were stacked on top of each other. In the middle of the coils there was about fifteen inches of open air space within the center of its entire coiled position. Just its head portion was raised in the air.
Upon first sighting the snake it was laying next to a tree and its brown and black camouflage pattern was almost perfectly blending into the look of the tree; except I could clearly see it now; and it could clearly see me too; and it was tasting the air with its tongue.
The movie “Raiders Of The Lost Ark” was a recent first run film at that time. So all the boys my age were familiar with bull whips and quite a few of us had to have one of those whip to play with. Garbage cans were our favorite targets and back then use to be made out of metal. You could easily cut one open or leave a slice mark in it with a whip. Anyways I knew exactly how long that snake was based on the coil count and the center air space within it.
Back to the story, the event was unfurling now, I saw that snake, I did the math in my head on how long it was, and simultaneously jumped up and backwards at least least six feet vertically upwards and at least ten feet horizontally backwards, not knowing I could do this, or even thinking I had that kind of jumping capabilities, I landed on my feet still facing the position where I first sighted that snake. My body said jump, my brain did not say jump, and so I was jumping and having to dealing with that fact while I was still in mid air. Things were happening really fast.
I forgot to mention, the reason I was out there canvasing the woods was because I was searching my dog who had recently gone missing perhaps about two weeks earlier. I went searching for that dog almost every day for the last two weeks. That dog of mine was a real swamp mutt and he was also my best friend too.
Bound and determined to find that dog I was prepared to go the distance that day. It was really hot and dry during my entire August search and I was canvasing a new section of ground that was usually out of my normal hiking range. I did know the general lay of the area from driving through it previously however.
So that’s a little background story, and now spinning the clock backwards in my story’s timeline to just slightly before the snake sighting event was about to occur; I found myself crashing through some high brush, making slow progress, but was making it towards a dry creek bed where I knew the going would be much easier. Finally I broke through the brush and hit a game trail, and was following that trail to a dry creek bed up ahead that I knew was running along a wooded hillside where the going was going to get a whole lot easier.
High brush bad, dry creek better, wooded hillside even better I was thinking. Anyways I was making a lot of noise hiking. Every time I would stepped on anything, or anytime I brushed against anything, it would go snap, crackle, or pop. I was also calling for my dog “Wuppy Dup the Swamp Mutt”. It was a sad call I guess to hear, but my presence was being made well known far in advance. So that snake knew I was coming.
Freeze frame the story, Adding little more background color, actually this information is pretty important, so I need to relay it, I was carrying a Winchester 22 semi automatic riffle for protection. I think it held seventeen shots in the magazine tube and one shot in the chamber. It was fully loaded.
I had quit hunting at age thirteen or fourteen back when I was living in central Ohio, at that age the Viet Nam war was still going on in full swing, there was only three channels on T.V. to watch, and back then the only kind of magazines in the Barber shops to read were hunting magazines. There were no Sports Illustrated magazines back-in-the-day or at least not in our barber shops anyways.
In fact there weren’t very many alternate forms of entertainment, hence every kid my age was training for the draft, or so we thought we were doing anyways, and were all pretty good shots, and therefore most game animals went locally extinct, or at least in our area they did. What wasn't hunted to near extinction the pesticide DDT was taking out just about everything else too. That DDT thing was happening nationwide for sure.
It wasn’t a good time to be wildlife back in the late 1960s I guess, and I played a small part in that bigger picture. It was senseless, and I still fill kind of feeling guilty about it. But by now, spinning the clock forward again in my story’s timeline, I was age 18 or 19, and my hunting days were over, It’s now the mid 1970s, I knew who I was, and I had just recently relocated to Southern Indiana, but since I was going out by myself into those woods, and since I was unfamiliar with the area I thought carrying that rifle along would probably be a prudent thing to do. I think I was more worried about running into a Hatfield and McCoy's type situation than anything else I guess.
O.K. were going back into real timeline story wise now; I’m flying backwards through the air, my feet are back pedaling to keep my balance, my eyes are on the snake, the ground is coming up, I’m still holding the rifle, that snake tasted the air three time I’m thinking is the correct count.
I landed on the ground, I’m still standing up, I’m still holding the rifle, and then blip instantaneously that snake disappears from my sight.
I never seen anything jump like that the snake thought. It’s not a cat, I’m not sure what it is, but from the way the ground was vibrating on my belly parts, and instinctually doing the math, the air tastes right, I think I can take that. It’s not too big, It’s not to heavy, let’s reset the clock, I’ll just keep hiding here and we will wait and see. Keep on coming tasty morsel. If that morsel does’t keep coming I still have options, but for now, we’ll wait for it, wait for it, wait for it...
Blip, what the heck, where did that thing go, I’m searching left and right, my ears are straining for anything to hear, I can’t see it anywhere. Blip plus one second and my arms are already moving, the rifle forward and it is now pointing down the trail, I know that gun will shoot as fast as I can pull the trigger. I only have seventeen shots I am thinking. I’ll take aim on the last sighting point. Bam, bam, bam, bam, I am spraying the ground from left to right, and left again, slight raising my aim as I go and dirt clods are flying up in the air like tracers. The tracer pattern is moving down the trail line away from me and I am counting my shots.
The snake reacts, “Oh what the hell I got to go!”
Suddenly from where it was hiding previously as if to reset its hunt for me, which at that time it was thinking was still a pretty good idea, or so it it had thought, the snake suddenly decided it was probably a better time time to run instead. It new where I was, and it knew where the dirt was leaping up into the air. So it ran at 90 degrees directly away from that line of control that I was establishing. While it was running to my surprise it sound like somebody was dragging at least three forty pound bags of rock salt simultaneously or more through the wood at horse galloping speeds.
It was moving at a rate much faster than I could possible hope to run. I knew I could not outrun that snake in my wildness of imaginations even it I were to try. That snake made it to the hillside and then made a split second later it turned on a dime, looking at me the whole time it was running, and it continued to run along the hill side towards apparent safety.
I put two shots above it has it ran. I put two shots below it as it ran and I was still counting my shots and it was still looking at me. Since it was running and since it was running away from me there was no reason to try and bring it down. Thinking quick, I decided to conserve my ammunition and then turned in the opposite direction and started to run too. I ran as fast as I could, for as far as I could, and I was looking backwards the whole time I was running too.
I never found my dog. At the time I did not even know what kind of snake it was. A big snake was all I was concerned with at that precise moment in time. Its coloration and camouflage pattern will be glued into my memory forever. Now, today, I am sure it was a Burmese python. How it came to be there I do not know.
So what to do about these kinds of snake encounters. I don’t think there is any defense one could effectively mount against one. If the air tastes right, if the vibrations you are making feel right to it, If you size up, and if that snake wants you, you won’t be able to out run it.
All you can do is keep your eyes open and hope that you see it first. Maybe you’ll get lucky and the day will be cold and the snake won’t be fully energized. I think rattlers can run sideways. This pythons was able to run in a fairly straight ahead direction, but could turn on a dime when it wanted to. I was lucky it changed its mind as regards my my particular level of threat that day. Early in the event I think I was defiantly being considered its prey.
So what am I going to bring along for defense when I go on the AT I’m still thinking about bringing along bear spray. I am hoping to avoid anything that’s not coming straight at me, that will be my main plan of action, but if I have to I will make a stand. When it makes sense to run, I plan to run.
The above story is a true story.
Just googled "Raiders of the Lost Ark". I'm adjusting the snake incident forward into my college years. It happened sometime during the early 1980s I believe. I did grow up in the 1960s, High school was between 1974 and 1977, with college going through the late 70s and into 1984 I believe.
Sorry to hear about "Wuppy Dup" the swamp mutt.
What a story WS! I'm generally not afraid of snakes, though I am respectful of them. If I'd encountered that snake, I would have been backpedaling right with you. You told the story well.
When I started this thread a few days ago, I was basically asking if carrying a gun was even necessary, and from what I hear, for the most part, no it isn't. Now I hear this story of a hiker and her dog being attacked by hunting dogs, and nothing is being done about it. In the post above he does bring up a good point, and yes I am willing to go out and practice at a range. Being former military, I know how to clean and maintain a gun, and would carry a field cleaning kit to maintain my weapon on the trail. Though I don't think I would carry it the whole way.
Once I get further north, the risk of seems to lessen considerably. So I may just mail the gun home once I get to a certain point. It is perfectly legal to send a gun through the mail so long as it isn't loaded. I'd just have to carry the bullets the rest of the way I guess, and those aren't nearly as heavy.
I really want to thank Theosus for the blog post he made, and pointing out the consequences of carrying a weapon on the trail. I for one would kill a dog to save my own life. Not sure about a human, but you can't reason with a dog. As for the snake issue, for the most part you leave them along they leave you alone. And bears on the AT are mostly black bears and non confrontational unless there are cubs involved.
There is one other possible use for a gun on the trail, and that is if you are lost and you need to signal someone. I know that seems like rationalizing, but just a thought. Heck carry blanks so you won't hurt anyone, and the nise alone might scare the dogs off.
Please make sure that you are more familiar with the laws. Only those individuals or companies with FFLs may ship a pistol through the US Postal Service. Those of us without an FFL must ship through a common carrier such as FedEx or UPS. FedEx and UPS stores are different companie/franchises than the delivery service and will not take a pistol, they will require you to go to the company hub, or you will have to schedule at home pick up.
You generally must ship to an FFL, or you may ship to yourself. And if you ship to yourself, the individual that receives it for you absolutely must understand that they cannot open the package, you must be the one to open it when you get home. You will also have to deal with shipping clerks or managers who may not fully understand the laws or shipper policies.
And if you are shipping a pistol home, ship the ammunition home too. Many of those states that make it difficult for one to exercise their most basic human rights also harshly regulate the ammunition. It would be a crime in NJ for example to have defensive ammunition such as JHP.
(I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advise and the last hotel I stayed in was Hostelling International DC.)
igne et ferrum est potentas
"In the beginning, all America was Virginia." -William Byrd
When I thru-hiked the AT, I couldn't count how many people asked me if I was packing a firearm. The fact of the matter is, it's NOT LEGAL to carry for one reason or another in many of the areas on the trail. Further, It's probably quite likely that if you're caught carrying illegally, you'll end up with a felony. Is it worth the risk? That being said, after I returned from the AT, I did purchase a couple of firearms and joined a shooting club. One of my guns is a Ruger LC9, which I intentionally bought for concealed carry. I've had that gun for about a year now, never got my CCP, and still have not carried anytime I've gone hiking. It really is overkill for the most part. I only had one incident on the trail that I felt I was truly in danger, and at the end of the day, a gun wouldn't have helped at all.
''It would be a crime in NJ for example to have defensive ammunition such as JHP.''
Not true, its only becomes an issue if said ammo is use in crime. Possession of said ammo in NJ is 100% legal.
RUNT ''13''
Posting Permissions
