Marathon Pacing input after hike

[Coffee]

I'm looking for some input/advice on marathon pacing for a race coming up in a little over six weeks. I thru hiked the Colorado Trail this year from July 28 to August 28 and resumed running a week ago when I returned home. As has been the case in the past after long hikes, my legs felt pretty much like lead weights even though I was not stressing from a cardio stand point at all. Well, after about 30 miles of running over the past week, my legs feel better but my pacing is about a full minute per mile slower than prior to the thru hike. This is quite a bit more severe of a drop in performance compared to what happened after my (shorter) JMT thru hike last year. After the JMT, my pacing didn't drop off by that much and I bounced back enough to run a 3:34 marathon just a bit over five weeks after returning.

My marathon PR was in March at 3:27 and I never had a goal of improving upon that this fall since I knew that I'd be thru hiking the CT and would have limited time to train afterwards. But I was hoping at least for something in the 3:30-3:40 range. But I don't want to get injured in the process of training. For reference, my pace on a seven mile run yesterday was around 8:30/mile. My more typical pace on such a training run when I'm toward the end of a 16 week marathon program might be in the 7:30/mile neighborhood.

I have three weeks before I begin a taper and my plan is to run 37, 41, and 45 mile weeks with 12, 16, and 20 mile long runs. I'm leaning toward being really conservative on how far I push myself and maybe resigning myself to a 3:45 to 4:00 marathon, but hoping to develop a strategy to get my pacing faster somehow over the next few weeks w/o injury so I can get closer to 3:30. I'm really trying to avoid injury because I plan to step up my training over the winter to hopefully Boston qualify when I run another marathon in the spring. BQ qualification for my age group is a 3:15 so that's a tall order based on my current PR, and if I suffer an injury in this training cycle, I won't have a chance.

Any input based on this limited info from other marathon runners w/experience with short training plans after thru hikes would be helpful. Thanks.

[map man]

I have experience with something similar, but not exactly the same. In 2009 I did a nine day hike in Colorado at significant elevations in early August. I came back to Iowa and ran a 10K in late September and a half marathon in mid-October. They both went extemely well. The half marathon remains to this day the only race of that distance or longer where I have managed to run negative splits, running the second half faster than the first half. I think that the hiking at altitude had a positive effect on my endurance for at least a couple months afterward. I did have to go slowly at regaining speed after I started in running again and my instincts told me not to push it and in hindsight I think that was wise. Don't push it, let it come naturally.

You were hiking for longer, which will make regaining speed more difficult, but the race you are about to run, the marathon, is less about speed and more about endurance anyway. Good luck.

[Just Bill]

I'm not a runner- so take it for what it's worth.

From my understanding of it- your best bet would be to do some speedwork. Your body is drilled into walking at the slower pace. No cardio or endurance issues, just a pacing one right? You know better than me what to do regarding your mileage and injury prevention. I do read up on marathon and ultra runners as I think their info translates well to speed/endurance hiking. Most of the training advice I have read to increase pace is to focus on speedwork- in your case especially I would think reprograming your muscle memory in that regard would be the quickest and safest solution as your base already exists.

I have started adding short bursts of jogging into my walking/training, I typically walk a 15/16 min/mile pace, but just a bit of jogging keeps my cadence quicker and "reminds" my body that I am capable of walking 12:30- 13:30 pace. Not sure why the same wouldn't translate for you as well. Without the jogging I find my pace reverts back to "normal" quickly. You may even find that doing a half mile at a faster pace will keep you on track during your longer sessions.

Jason Robillard mentioned in his book temporarily increasing speed to alleviate fatigue; I find it works well, and as an added bonus I have found that it helps to avoid falling off pace as well. In my case, just a quarter mile at a light jog (10-12 min/mile) snaps me back to my desired pace for the next mile or two.

[Pedaling Fool]

I'm not a runner- so take it for what it's worth.

From my understanding of it- your best bet would be to do some speedwork. Your body is drilled into walking at the slower pace. No cardio or endurance issues, just a pacing one right? You know better than me what to do regarding your mileage and injury prevention. I do read up on marathon and ultra runners as I think their info translates well to speed/endurance hiking. Most of the training advice I have read to increase pace is to focus on speedwork- in your case especially I would think reprograming your muscle memory in that regard would be the quickest and safest solution as your base already exists.

I have started adding short bursts of jogging into my walking/training, I typically walk a 15/16 min/mile pace, but just a bit of jogging keeps my cadence quicker and "reminds" my body that I am capable of walking 12:30- 13:30 pace. Not sure why the same wouldn't translate for you as well. Without the jogging I find my pace reverts back to "normal" quickly. You may even find that doing a half mile at a faster pace will keep you on track during your longer sessions.

Jason Robillard mentioned in his book temporarily increasing speed to alleviate fatigue; I find it works well, and as an added bonus I have found that it helps to avoid falling off pace as well. In my case, just a quarter mile at a light jog (10-12 min/mile) snaps me back to my desired pace for the next mile or two.

He's right. You want to go faster, then you gotta start going faster.

[map man]

With all due respect to a couple recent posts, I WOULD NOT do speed work. My most serious running injury came when I tried to transition too fast from endurance running (ultra marathon in April and marathon in May) to a 5k on July 4. I tried transitioning from slower hill intervals to pure speed intervals and hurt my hip and couldn't run for several weeks. I say play to your likely endurance strengths for this particular marathon and see how it goes.

[Pedaling Fool]

With all due respect to a couple recent posts, I WOULD NOT do speed work. My most serious running injury came when I tried to transition too fast from endurance running (ultra marathon in April and marathon in May) to a 5k on July 4. I tried transitioning from slower hill intervals to pure speed intervals and hurt my hip and couldn't run for several weeks. I say play to your likely endurance strengths for this particular marathon and see how it goes.

It's true that you can injure yourself from speedwork, so you want to start off slow; don't just start sprinting at full speed.

However, I wouldn't skip speed workout simply because of the risk of injury, maybe schedule for a different time, but NOT skip it. The way I look at it, if something can cause injury, then that's a reason to do it, because that is a sign of weakness. I believe in being an all around runner, both having good endurance, but also explosive speed when needed. Nature favors the all-arounders, not the specialists.

[Just Bill]

Yar- I suppose "Speed" is a relative term. Odd to find myself in the slower perspective, lol.
I meant a bit more of the gentle speed work I mentioned- say a :30 or minute bump in pace to work back on track.
I fergot in runner speak speed means something a bit different.

The concept of "forcing" a faster pace is all I meant, not a balls to the wall training session.

[Pedaling Fool]

Yes, speed is relative. Not all my speed work is all out sprints and they don't have to be and some of my speed work is actually tempo running, which is just a little higer pace (speed) over my comfortable pace for a shorter than normal run. All this goes to increasing speed, or better PR in a given event.

A thru-hike is just gonna hurt your marathon time, although in the big picture it's a plus (IMHO). If you want to get back some time, then you gotta run, but at a certain point of just running you'll hit a plateau; that's when the speedwork should come in.

The body is lazy and it will only do what you require of it; if all you do is run x-miles per week you will get to a point where there is no significant improvement. But I'm no expert, but these people are: http://www.active.com/running/articl...st-to-run-fast

[Malto]

It's really hard to tell how much strain you put on your body from your hike. I would likely treat the hike as just another long race, marathon. How would you train if you did two marathons with this time duration in between. I ran two marathon with four weeks between them. Never again unless I was in much better running shape. I only ran a 3:54 so you are in a different class than I was when I ran them.

[Coffee]

For my personal record marathon this past March, I trained using the 55 mile/week schedule from Pete Pfitzinger's "Advanced Marathoning" book and stuck to the plan pretty closely. For the first time, I differentiated my training runs based on type (general aerobic, lactate threshold, recovery, speed, marathon pace, etc) and I think it had a very positive effect that led to dropping my time by several minutes. In addition, in retrospect after the race, I felt that I left something on the course and could have probably cut my time to 3:25 or lower which is when I got the idea of going for a 3:15 Boston qualifying time next spring. So knowing that the marathon this fall would come after the Colorado Trail, I didn't really think of incorporating speed work or the more advanced techniques Pfitzinger advocates because essentially my training cycle is only 4 weeks before the taper and I'm afraid that speed work could cause harm given my lack of conditioning for running after not training for six weeks while hiking. However, maybe I should revisit this assumption and incorporate some of the Pfitzinger plan into my approach for the next several weeks.

From what I've read, hiking has a negative impact on running speed both due to exercising different muscle groups and conditioning the body to optimize for anaerobic exercise such as hiking at 2.5 mph for 10 hours per day. Obviously the demands of an aerobic exercise like marathon running requires the body to tap stored energy sources in a different way. I happened to meet and speak to one of the Leadville 100 ultra participants near Hope Pass. It was a week before the ultra and she was scoping out the pass and acclimating. Her feedback was that for a long distance hiker, running ultras might actually be a better overall fit since ultras are run at a more moderate pace than marathons. I'm not sure if she meant to imply that an ultra runner is operating anaerobically some of the time, but perhaps that is the case. A 100 mile ultra with a 30 hour time limit obviously implies a very different strategy than trying to Boston qualify in 3 hours 15 minutes. So perhaps I should in the future look to shorter ultras (maybe a 50 miler) rather than marathons for a fall race...

[Mobius]

So perhaps I should in the future look to shorter ultras (maybe a 50 miler) rather than marathons for a fall race...

Stonemill is probably near-ish to you and is mid November and not (yet) sold out: http://www.stone-mill-50-mile.org/
Most of the other fall 50 miles in VA are sold out already.

There are some 50K's that may not be sold out yet but they're not a lot longer than your marathon, though most will be on trails, not roads.

I think tossing in some 3-5 mile tempo runs starting at your desired race pace might help get the legs turning over faster. Or just pick it up in the middle of, say, a 15 mile run so you get a solid warmup/cool sandwiching the increased pace. I wouldn't go knocking out 60 sec quarter miles right away though. If I recall correctly, Pfitzinger's book has a chapter on how to recover/retrain for back-to-back marathons or interrupted training cycles.

[Just Bill]

A 100 mile ultra with a 30 hour time limit obviously implies a very different strategy than trying to Boston qualify in 3 hours 15 minutes. So perhaps I should in the future look to shorter ultras (maybe a 50 miler) rather than marathons for a fall race...

Tempo runs, not speedwork, was more along the lines of what I meant to say earlier. I don't have my "runner speak" down yet. That is likely your best strategy given your timeframe.

Training for Boston, is a different ballgame for sure. If it's what you want, you'll have to focus on that directly.

Long term happiness?
As you imply, Ultrarunning, especially the longer distances, and Thru-hiking do go hand in hand. If you find that running and hiking are both passions, that type of running will compliment and go well with Long Distance hiking. As you've discovered, Marathoning is a different deal.
As an example- Skurka placed 2nd place in an Ultra not long after LD hiking (Hardrock, I believe). I think several people find the sports mix well. As Mags and others have pointed out- Ultras, Fastpacking, Endurance hiking, Speed hiking or whatever you want to call it are blending together faster than ever. Ultrarunners like Joey Camps will continue to show up on our trails. (Which is great- that's a huge community with dollars to spend on parks, preservation and other intangibles)

In my limited experience, Ultrarunners seem to focus more on completion/participation than time. Ultra's are also emerging from "fringe" status in the running world and gaining serious traction as their own sport. In addition the community seems very similar to the hiking community. I think most hikers could complete an Ultra, and more ultra runners are looking to learn/gain the freedom of the overnight hiker. The training is quite compatible and complimentary. In fact the actual course itself is the same. Even training for road races on pavement requires a different tact and method- no such conflict with hiking and ultras.

Hell, how many "average" hikers a year complete the four state challenge on the AT with no training, no aide, slackpack loads, or even a full load. Just because it's a hiker doing it, doesn't mean they didn't complete an ultra in the process.

My fastest marathon time to date- 7:10. Of course that's with a pack and no aid stations.
My fastest Ultra time (40 miler)- 12:20. Again, pack and no aid stations.
Point being- I wouldn't even make the cut-off in an official marathon.
A girlfriend of mine just did her first Ultra, a 12 hour style event. She completed 42.6 miles in the 12 hours, on a one mile loop (shoot me in the head) with full aid and no pack. Guess with zero training for it, I'm a "field" level Ultramarathoner! I'm not going to place, but I am "competitive".

Point being- You can LD hike and Ultra run at a respectable times/distances without having to devote entire seasons (or even years) to one or the other. As it sits now- hiking/running 26.2 don't go. But Hiking/ultra's don't just go- but increase enjoyment in both activities.

[Coffee]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I think that I will plan on trying out an ultra sometime in the near future. Maybe my current interests with respect to long distance hiking just mesh better with ultras as a way to get out and enjoy running more. My goal of Boston qualifying is still important to me but maybe could be deferred a few years... after all the qualifying times get easier for older age groups! I'll have to give it some thought. In the short run, I'm going to play it safe for the marathon and plan on a 3:45 or slower, and maybe do negative splits on the second half if I'm feeling energetic.

[rocketsocks]

Well I learned a few things about the running game from this thread...good one.

[glacier freeze]

I'll chime in.

(1) volume ... shoot for 42 mpw, 49 mpw, 45 mpw, 47 mpw, 45 mpw, 42 mpw
-your long run distance don't make sense at all ... you stated that you want to run on average 42 mpw ... but you listed a 20 miler for week 3 ... long run should only be 25% of your weekly mileage, maybe a 1/3 ... either bump up your mpw or no long run longer than 16 miles ... ideally 13 milers ... don't really "modulate" the long run distance ... always play with your aerobic strength ... maybe do 12, 14, 14, 16, 14, 12
-often times the long run is viewed as the holy grail to many recreational runners ... elites view the long run as another piece to the puzzle, but recognize that it shouldn't be placed on a pedestal
NOTE: if you have to run DOUBLES in order to break up the work, do DOUBLES
NOTE: if you have the time, run a 1-2 mile double 3 times a week ... it's an easy way to add 3-6 miles each week

(2) aerobic STRENGTH
-progression runs ... 6-8 miles ... start at 9:30 cut down to 7:30 pace (7:30 for the last 0.5 mile)
-threshold runs ... 1 mile w/u ... 4-5 miles ... start at 8:00 for the first 1/8th of the threshold run, then cut down to a stable 7:45 pace ... 1 mile w/d
-threshold intervals ... 1 mile w/u ... 5-6 x 5 minute intervals (1000m-1200m) ... stable 7:45 to 7:35 pace ... 1 mile w/d
-tempo runs ... 1 mile w/u ... 3-4 miles ... start at 7:30 for the first 1/8th of the threshold, then cut down to a stable 7:20 pace ... 1 mile w/d
-hill repeats
TIP: combine a shortened tempo with a hill repeat session ... ignore w/u ... 2-3 mile tempo run ... 5 minute active recovery (jogging/walking) ... 6-10 x 150m-200m hill repeats, equal distance recovery

(3) recovery
-easy days are easy ... 10:00 to 9:00 pace ... 6-8 miles
-long run is not a race
-listen to your body
-doubles if you need to in order to split up workload ... never split evenly ... ideally do a 80/20 split, maybe 70/30 split
-RECOVERY is not REST ... recovery is a state of relaxation/letting going/loosening up/PREPARING YOUR BODY FOR MORE INTENSE WORK, recovery does not mean being sedentary and shutting down

(4) the little things
-muscular strength ... lunges, squats, lateral lunges, mountain climbers, jump squats, pushups, flutter kicks, russian twists, row (ab exercise), bicycles, planks, pull ups ... DO THEM AS A 5-15 minute circuit (no rest or recovery between exercise) ... so say 10 lunges, 30 second plank, 10 bicycles, 10 pushups ...
-stretching and icing and rolling
-sleep

(5) speed ... you notice how speed is last
-strides only ... really no need to do 200/300/400/600m REPEATS
-strides can come in a variety
-standard 6x100m stride/6x100m buildups/4x150m accelerators/80m-100m-120m-140m-120m-100m-80m/2x200m/1x300m buildup
-strides are not all out sprints ... 80-95% of maximum of effort ... CONTROLLED

TIP: if you can (as in you have the time during the weekdays) don't base your program around a 7 day cycle
I like to do
Day 1: long run
Day 2: progression run
Day 3: threshold run/interval
Day 4: long run
Day 5: easy run
Day 6: tempo run
Day 7: progression run
Day 8: easy run
Day 9: long run
...
Day 10: progression run
Day 11: threshold run/interval
Day 12: long run
Day 13: easy run
Day 14: tempo run
Day 15: progression run
Day 16: easy run

Note: I like to get 2 long runs in within a 7 day period ... a main long run and an ancillary long run ... the main long run is your standard long run ... the ancillary long run is a bit shorter (like 1-2 mile shorter), but definitely slower than the main long run ... so it's a hybrid of a long run and easy run

If you don't have the time during the week
Day 1 (Sunday): long run
Day 2: progression run
Day 3: easy
Day 4: long
Day 5: easy
Day 6: tempo/threshold
Day 7: easy

[Coffee]

Thanks for the input. Your suggestions are similar to what I've read in the Pfizinger book (Advanced Marathoning) and I used this approach for my last marathon in March. My current plan is negatively impacted by the fact that I did not train from late July until early September mainly due to hiking the Colorado Trail. My unconventional approach with long runs is due to my idea of limiting overall miles to avoid injury while also getting in at least a few longer runs including a 20. I'm running 16 on Saturday and 20 a week from Saturday, then tapering. This is definitely not optimal in any way but by limiting overall miles while at least getting some longer runs in I hope do as well as possible. I have regained some, but not all, of my running fitness over the past three weeks. I have pretty low expectations for my marathon time and probably will just run for fun. I signed up for another marathon in early January so I'll have time to apply better training to that effort.

[glacier freeze]

Do not try to make up for a "deficiency". Running 20 miles, no matter how fast or slow the pace is, isn't going to do you any good. Just like you're right in saying that you want to avoid shorter, faster intervals, the flip side is true as well, running too much at any one point increases the risk of self injury. Fast long run = higher chance of injury; slow long run = physiologically it doesn't make a difference to your fitness if you run 16 miles or 20 miles .... metabolically it does make a difference, but it's a very minimal difference. Instead, compensate for that 4 miles by including doubles. 2, 2-mile doubles will make up that physiological difference.

Also, DO NOT TAPER. At least don't do what is considered a taper, and drop volume (by more than 15%). Keep the volume up, but direct your attention more towards faster stuff with more recovery time. So shorten the long run by a bit (maybe only do 12 miles on the 6th week), but increase the volume on higher value work (progression run, threshold intervals). At the same time, make sure you're getting your recovery runs in.

So week 4, keep the long run at 15-16, increase pace of only progression run and threshold work.
Week 5, cut the long run to 14-15, increase pace on progression run and tempo work (ignore threshold work).
Week 6, long run @ 12-13, 1 solid but relaxed threshold run, recovery, progression run, recovery with strides (300m buildup), recovery with strides (2x200m).

So this is called sharpening not tapering.

[CarlZ993]

With such a short training window, you may be asking for an injury. If you extend your horizon to a later date, you'd be able to train adequately to run at or near your intended pace. The Houston Marathon in Jan is a fast course. The Austin Marathon in Feb is a hilly course in a cool town (hometown bias).

Or, don't treat your marathon as a race. Make it an occasion. Keep your pace much slower. Don't even wear a watch. Have planned walks. Carry a camera & capture the event while you're in it. Stop @ the aid stations & thank the volunteers for the help. Etc. I had a friend of mine run in this fashion when he ran the Marine Corp Marathon w/ his two daughters (1st time marathoners).

FYI - My P.R. is much slower than yours: 3:37 in 1979. Won't be near those times unless I'm on a bicycle.

Regardless of your decision, I wish you luck.

[Pedaling Fool]

Probably don't want to try this for your next race, but it's something to think of in the future. I totally forgot about this technique, but I can't vouch for it, since I've never tried it and as with anything there are its detractors; however, it also has people that say it works, such as Amby Burfoot and others.

It's called Yasso 800's.

Some very interesting reading: http://www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_pu...log_id=2868015

This link has a video of Bart Yasso, himself, explaining the concept behind Yasso 800's http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/yasso-800s


http://runnersconnect.net/running-tr...es/yasso-800s/

[Pedaling Fool]

^^^^ I probably should have added something about the importance of building a base first, or a fat-burning machine. My problem is that I don't have the patience to properly do it, because it's not sexy or you don't feel like you've accomplished much after a low-intensity run. Mark Allen describes me to a T in this video. http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/ma...-aerobic-base/


Using HR versus pace may be the way to keep me motivated, like in this link http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/04...-training.html


Excerpt:

"Allen used a fairly complex formula to determine an aerobic endurance training heart rate zone based mostly on age and experience. I’ve found it’s remarkably accurate and closely matches the zone 2 training I have athletes do in their Base periods. His long, steady sessions at this rather low effort built a great aerobic engine. His goal was to get as fast as possible at a low effort. That’s a great goal.

Using the formula he determined his aerobic endurance training heart rate was about 155 bpm and so would spend hours running and riding at that intensity in the first period. He says that when he first started he was running 8:15 mile pace (5:09/km) at 155 bpm. After a few weeks he was running 5:20 per mile (3:20/km) at the same heart rate. That’s a whopping 35% improvement. How would you like to run 35% faster or raise your FTP on the bike by 35%?"