shelter etiquette

[Blue Mountain Edward]

I admit that I often use shelters because I am lazy. But I carry a heavy tent and use it often and will not want to overcrowd a shelter on a rainy day. If I hike to a shelter after sunset, in the dark and it is occupied by few ladies I ask if is okay for me to sleep in the shelter. Shelters seem to attract the kind of people best avoided such as snorers, moochers, car campers, party all nighters. I like dogs but dont want to share floor space with them. I seen some bad behavior such as public sex, drinking then puking, drunken late night gunfire at shelters. If there are more than one or two people in a shelter the tents should be outside. Please dont burn the floor or bunks with a stove. Almost all shelters got multiple burns on the floor and bunks. Well that is enough complaining for one day, see yall in the woods.

[adamkrz]

I like dogs and dogs like me, but PLEASE keep your flea and tick infested dog out of the shelter so other people don't have to deal with your dog. Sure you have the best well behaved and friendly dog in the world, but that does not matter. I, nor do anyone else wants your dog walking on my sleeping bag, licking my face, begging for food or barking in the middle of the night every time it hears some sound in the woods or someone moves around in the shelter.

If you hike with a dog you have an obligation to tent away from everyone else. You have no right to inflict your dog on others. We have a right to enjoy the woods without your dog. The only ones who think a dog isn't a problem are the selfish, inconsiderate dog owners.

No problem - just keep your crab infected, Nasty funk, All night farting & snoring and Ill temper away from my dog. Leave your nastiness in your home.

[CrumbSnatcher]

So if his dog has been in the shelter all evening, sitting on his mat & not causing an issue for any other hikers... They'll be "forced out" when one of the AT Supreme Overlords of whiteblaze comes walking in late?

I'd point out the closest flat ground for you & go back to sleep lol.

for all the bitching on WB about dogs! its no where near that bad on the trail :-)

[Lone Wolf]

You have absolutely no idea just how many dog owners and handlers I know, and just how many of them agree with me. But unlike you I know that I can't prove that or even produce nonbiased statistics on the matter to support my claim. For the record, I'm not "on edge", I just dislike you.

you would like me in person . may i ask if you've ever hiked long distance on the AT? have any of the dog handlers/owners that you know done any long distance backpacking? and do you make your dog carry a pack?

[Likeapuma]

Good to hear. If the trail were anywhere as rude or judgemental as whiteblaze, I bet the success rate would plummet.

Not saying I'd personally bring dog, but if a person is there before others & the dog is behaving, I'd probably more annoyed with the entitled hikers coming in later.

[Wise Old Owl]

for all the bitching on WB about dogs! its no where near that bad on the trail :-)

Yes I agree - but when a dog has a backpack - folks with out dogs melt in front of you "how cute!" When the dog doesn't have the pack on I can see some unusual facial expressions of "why is he on the trail?" One couple thought Rugby was a bear in the distance. Just a thought.

[Sarcasm the elf]

once a year or so a newbie comes in here, and they get their tails chewed off by self righteous self appointed trail law

this board does more to turn people off of the trail than introduce people to it.

telling people to just stay home?!? SMH shame on yall

Sadly this is correct. I've met more than a handful of hikers on the trail who have told me in very colorful language that they didn't appreciate the self righteous preaching here on WB, particularly when it came to dogs.

If half of the imaginary problems that you read about on this site were actual problems on the trail then I don't think anyone would bother hiking it.

[No Directions]

I find that 99.9% of the people I meet on the trail are very nice. The other .1% are just quiet so I don't know if they are nice or not. I like dogs. I day hike with mine but never overnight with him. I don't mind them being in the shelter if they are well behaved. Even wet they can't possibly smell worse than a hiker that has been out for a couple of days. Most of the dogs are so tired that they curl up on a corner and go to sleep.

I have a feeling that many of the people that are on WB are armchair hikers anyway.

[Lone Wolf]

I have a feeling that many of the people that are on WB are armchair hikers anyway.

i'm a packsniffer

[mattjv89]

Sadly this is correct. I've met more than a handful of hikers on the trail who have told me in very colorful language that they didn't appreciate the self righteous preaching here on WB, particularly when it came to dogs.

If half of the imaginary problems that you read about on this site were actual problems on the trail then I don't think anyone would bother hiking it.

Agree with this, and whoever said too many pages back to find that opinions on here are often a tiny minority of what you'll encounter on the trail. I see most if not all of the taboos mentioned here done on a routine basis in shelters. Cooking and eating in shelters, spreading gear all over the place and hanging wet things from every peg, the occasional dog in a shelter, etc. etc. etc. Maybe it's just because there is a little less traffic through VT but I still have yet to see a confrontation about any of this, people either stay in the shelter and put up with each other or they sleep elsewhere.

[July]

Agree with this, and whoever said too many pages back to find that opinions on here are often a tiny minority of what you'll encounter on the trail. I see most if not all of the taboos mentioned here done on a routine basis in shelters. Cooking and eating in shelters, spreading gear all over the place and hanging wet things from every peg, the occasional dog in a shelter, etc. etc. etc. Maybe it's just because there is a little less traffic through VT but I still have yet to see a confrontation about any of this, people either stay in the shelter and put up with each other or they sleep elsewhere.

True post. Active hike and chair-blogging are different beasts!

[squeezebox]

One of my pet peves, walking with my dog in the park and someone insists on their dog approaching mine for the sniff test. I loudly tell them to heel their dog. They don't ! and look at me like I'm a jerk. and say " the dog was just trying to be friendly" my dog likes people but not other dogs. My dog has snapped at other dogs never at a person. They claim their dog is well controlled , then why the tight leash.
Dogtra maybe your dog is as well behaved as you say. or maybe he is a situation as above, I do not want my gear walked on and knocked over,
I have no way of judging if your claims are accurate or not, until something happens, There are certainly a lot of dog owners that are blind to their dog's misbehavior. somehow I doubt that you'll buy me a new sleeping bag if your walks on and tears mine.
Bottom line! I have a right to be suspicious of your dog,
YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO INFLICT YOUR DOG ON OTHER PEOPLE. Too much crap has happened from people with mis behavied dogs for me to 100% believe you.

[Another Kevin]

Maybe it's just because there is a little less traffic through VT but I still have yet to see a confrontation about any of this, people either stay in the shelter and put up with each other or they sleep elsewhere.

That's exactly what I do. Put up with the other shelter rats, or else sleep elsewhere. More often it's the latter, because I find my tent more comfortable most of the time.

That doesn't mean that I can't inwardly think that people are displaying bad manners. And someone asked what was considered to be good manners. Sometimes good manners are rare.

[bangorme]

True post. Active hike and chair-blogging are different beasts!

Maybe "active hikers" should be given a badge. That way we could allow only "active hikers" to post here lol.

Just a technicality, but the shelters don't belong to "active hikers," they belong to everyone. Therefore, the proper etiquette isn't something the "active hikers" decree upon everyone else. And, just because someone has seen everything happen in a shelter and everyone just bites their tongue, that really wasn't the question of the OP.

[Alligator]

From the ATC as LW linked:

Hiking with Dogs


Dogs are permitted along most of the Trail, but they impose additional responsibilities on the hikers who bring them along. If you want to hike with your dog, be considerate of others (and your dog) by planning carefully, educating yourself about local regulations, and keeping your dog controlled at all times.

REGULATIONS AND RESTRICTIONS

Dogs are NOT ALLOWED in three areas along the Trail:

• Baxter State Park, Maine
• Bear Mountain State Park Trailside Museum and Wildlife Center, New York—alternate road walk is available
• Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tennessee and North Carolina

Leashes ARE REQUIRED on more than 40 percent of the Trail, including:

• Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, Pennsylvania and New Jersey
• Maryland (entire state)
• Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, West Virginia
• Shenandoah National Park, Virginia
• Blue Ridge Parkway, Virginia
• 500+ miles of A.T. land administered by the National Park Service

We recommend dogs be leashed at all times, as a matter of courtesy to other hikers and to minimize stress to wildlife, regardless of whether it’s required by law.
TRAIL ETHICS FOR DOGS AND THEIR OWNERS

People hiking with dogs should be aware of the impact of their animals on the Trail environment and their effect on the Trail experience of others. Be conscientious about cleaning up after your dog and keeping them away from water sources—dogs, like people, can carry and spread giardia and other diseases.

• Always keep your dog on a leash.
• Do not allow your pet to chase wildlife.
• Do not allow your dog to stand in springs or other sources of drinking water.
• Be mindful of the rights of other hikers not to be bothered by even a friendly dog.
• Bury your pet's waste as you would your own.

Take special measures at shelters. Keep your dog leashed in the shelter area, and ask permission of other hikers before allowing your dog in a shelter. Be prepared to "tent out" when a shelter is crowded, and on rainy days.
For more information, visit the Leave No Trace site here.

And at the LNT site

8 Tips to Leave No Trace with your Dog


Many of us enjoy bringing our pets to our local city, county, and state parks. However, it’s important to recognize some of the specific impacts associated with pets in the outdoors.
Below are a few simple tips to help keep your pet and wild animals safe while ensuring an enjoyable recreation experience for all visitors.
8 TIPS TO LEAVE NO TRACE WITH YOUR DOG

1. Appreciate the natural and cultural resources of the park. Keep your pet from digging in any area of the park or historic site, and out of any buildings.
2. Enjoy your pet's company but remember that not everyone is comfortable around them. Keep your pet leashed and under control.
3. Enjoy water recreation but remember, the water isn’t a bathtub for your pet. Keep them away from swimming areas and beaches.
4. Keep your pet with you. Leaving it unattended is no fun for the pet or nearby visitors.
5. Make sure your pet has plenty of water and food.
6. Leave no waste behind for the next visitor to find. Bring your own bags to pick up your pet's waste. Ask about waste bag dispensers and the location of trash dumpsters.
7. Respect the natural habitat of wildlife by keeping your pet at a safe distance.
8. Enjoy all the benefits of the outdoors and keep pet noise to a minimum for the benefit of other visitors.

Now, tone down the name calling folks.

You don't see some of these issues on the trail because people don't want to spark a confrontation. It may not be a huge concern to them but perhaps they would like to see the behavior not happen. (I am not saying I agree with some of these either BTW.) I generally don't stay inside the shelter if someone else is using it, so I don't I run into a lot of these issues anyway . I don't stay in the shelter because I snore, stay up late and like to drink whiskey. I frequently head lamp it into the shelter as well. I do often stay near the shelters though. I will say I agree with the ATC on the dogs in the shelter point. I'm very pro-dog too. I have no problems with dogs on the trail. If your dog stays out of my food and doesn't bark at me incessantly, then the dog and I will be best buddies. Please don't expect me to like you unconditionally though.

Shelters are primitive dwelling places. Three walls a roof and a floor. People sleep on the floor. There are fancy ones of course but in general, if the dog is in the shelter, hikers end up being eye level with a strange dog. People shouldn't have to worry about whether your dog is on good behavior. Dogs are unpredictable. To say that dog problems don't happen is simply not accurate. I have had dogs growl at me, lunge at me, follow me trying to bite me, attack my leashed dog, try to steal my food, and walk/jump on my stuff. I forget a good many events and forgive any dog that acts friendly later. As I said I like dogs, it's the irresponsible owners that I am none too keen on.

Some things not mentioned:
1. Some people are allergic to dogs. Hikers are going to be sleeping in the shelter, their sleeping gear is going to be laid out.
2. People don't want dogs walking on their bags. I would be especially concerned about the dog's nails puncturing a sleeping pad. (Happened to my hiking buddy, it was his dog though.)

We have the dog forum here to bring attention to issues like these and to discuss methods to make bringing a dog a smoother experience for all parties.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

Why call the smokies stupid?

Put the blame on other hikers as without the abuse and damage that occurs around shelters in the park, the regulation to not tent in a shelter site wouldn't have had to been put in place....

Taken out of context. I'm referring to mandatory shelter stays and lack of campsites along the AT, not the park itself. It was a tongue in cheek reference to the rules. I'd rather not do the slumber party, but hey, whaddya gonna do?

And the idiot hikers were all over this weekend. When will people learn Mountain House packages don't burn in a fire"

[BuckeyeBill]

I have been following this thread from the beginning and Alligator's post was concise and on point. Before anyone says anything I am a dog lover and have owned many dogs throughout my life. Many people say that their dog is well behaved and well trained.

My question is what would your dog due in the event of a encounter with a bear? Will it run with its tail between its legs? Will it bark and just generally raise hell? Worst of all will it cause the bear to go on the offensive and attack you and your dog and anyone else around you? This is something that could happen while hiking the AT or while camped at a shelter. If you can't answer these questions honestly is it worth bringing your dog with you? I certainly would not want to lose a dog under such conditions.

Just something to think about.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I have been following this thread from the beginning and Alligator's post was concise and on point. Before anyone says anything I am a dog lover and have owned many dogs throughout my life. Many people say that their dog is well behaved and well trained.

My question is what would your dog due in the event of a encounter with a bear? Will it run with its tail between its legs? Will it bark and just generally raise hell? Worst of all will it cause the bear to go on the offensive and attack you and your dog and anyone else around you? This is something that could happen while hiking the AT or while camped at a shelter. If you can't answer these questions honestly is it worth bringing your dog with you? I certainly would not want to lose a dog under such conditions.

Just something to think about.

This is basically a non issue as black bears will normally avoid dogs whenever they can. I think the better question is when was the last time you heard a report of one of your scenarios above actually happening to a hiker on the East coast? In the time that I've been backpacking I can't recall hearing about a single incident on the trail.

[rickb]

etiquette-the customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group.

A related issue to etiquette are those few unwritten shelter laws that a hiker should accept without reservation for himself and expect/demand of others as an absolute.

The one example I can think of is when a party which is unfamiliar with the Trail operates under the assumption that since they got to the shelter first, then they can reasonably take it over for themselves. This does not happen often, and when it does it occurs more frequently off season and at shelters away from the AT proper-- but is can and does occur.

If it does, you work it out or you work around it -- no worries -- but you should be 100% confident that if there is a reasonable (pad wide) amount of space, you have an inalienable claim on it no matter what anyone tells you.

Related, but not quite as clear cut is when people who have arrived at a shelter first claim space for their hiking partners who have yet to arrive. That is not cool -- don't do it -- gut it is an a slightly grayer area.

[Offshore]

why? a conversation is a conversation

From Psychology Today: Perhaps you’ve heard the research, now several years old, showing that people find cell phone conversations they overhear to be more distracting than in-person conversations between two or more people. Reported by Cornell University psychologist Lauren Emberson and colleagues (2010), this research suggests that we find public cell phone behavior to be annoying because it’s so intrusive into our consciousness. The reasoning goes something like this. When you hear a live conversation, you know what everyone is saying because it’s all there for you to hear. When you hear a cell phone conversation, you don’t know what the other person is saying, so your ever-curious brain tries to fill in the missing pieces. This takes more mental energy than simply hearing both sides of the conversation, leaving less for you to allocate to whatever else you might be doing such as that book you're reading or assignment you're trying to complete.