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  1. #41

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    Obviously, some wish to attack me now. Some of you are like wash woman wanting to drag me into your soap opera hiking drama. Arguments, contentious debates, taking offense, complaining, being annoyed, angry, frustrated, etc seems to be the order of the day.

    Don't confuse what I said. Read the very brief respectful exchange Alpine Bomber and I had AND DO NOT CONFUSE WHAT I SAID WITH WHAT ANYONE ELSE HAS SAID TO ALPINE BOMBER on that LT water thread OR the REI credit application thread AP started. Read my comments to her on both threads. I stand by what I said. People put her on the spot on both threads going so far as what I too would consider attacking her. That wasn't me! I think she handled herself extremely well. IMHO, she demonstrates a whole lot more maturity and conscientiousness than many.

    Someone started a thread mentioning not wanting to buy "expensive" books. I didn't know what she means by too expensive so I told her where she could get a LT book for under $20. I see them being sold for under $17. In that book is the water info, in detail, she wanted. I also made a brief comment addressing her water question. I thought that might be helpful to mention especially in regards to a tight budget. I did nudge her a bit reminding her paying for this book can help support the trail shes on. I NEVER said it was a requirement for her to buy a book to support the LT. That wasn't trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone; that was attempting to make someone aware of giving back. She came back telling me she supports trails in her own way. In hindsight, I didn't need to say that to AP - WHY - because she already knew it! She's already giving back on her terms. Giving shouldn't be something that is forced upon someone. That's extortion. She showed us how conscientious she is, more so than some others. If it's taken offensively when someone is attempting to remind others that hiking isn't all about taking that's there problem. Just my 2 cts.

  2. #42
    Registered User Sierra2015's Avatar
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    This thread is about nickel and diming good cents.

  3. #43
    Registered User Alpine Bomber's Avatar
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    I think it's time for me to weigh in, since I'm the partial reason for this post. First of all, I'd like to let Dogwood off the hook. He meant well, even though it may have come off a little guilt-trippy. That happens to the best of us online at times. Not only did he send me a personal message to clear things up (I tried to respond but your inbox is full), he also offered to let me use HIS copy of the book in questions. That offer of a little trail magic is exactly what I love seeing on White Blaze. I think this site would be a lot better off if we has a touch more trail magic and a whole lot less name-calling and personal attacks. Thank you to everyone who has supported me and remained positive, but perhaps instead of 'Should hikers be required to pay or give back to the trail?' we could discuss the best ways of doing so. Slo-go'en suggested carrying pruning shears, we've all mentioned buying merchandise from the clubs maintaining trails, I'm inclined to think that even just the know-how experienced hikers share with newbies on this website constitutes giving back. I don't get out to long distances trails often, but I do maintenance on the trails in my area. Does anyone have any great ways to give back?

    Thanks everyone,
    -Alpine Bomber

  4. #44
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    "Giving Back" sort of implies that you should give because you get. In a quid pro quo sort of way.

    The entire premise behind that way of thinking is flawed.

    As for the AT, anyone else notice that many doing the most maintenance often don't have so many miles on their CV. Really amazing and wonderful, that.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by mak1277 View Post
    So if I enjoy a walk around my block, do I have a similar moral obligation to give extra money to my HOA every year? This is ludicrous.
    Does your HOA have to maintain the roadways? or spend money to clear the road if it is blocked. Or if someone need emergency service cover the cost?

    Most likely, no to everything. HOA job is position is keeping the property value up. They would like you to believe different, but most HOA areas are maintain using public fund. A different mission then trying to protect and preserve a trail or the public to enjoy.

    Every year the trail needs to be cleared, blazes painted, the boundary area needs to be marked (not often seen from the trail). And of course protecting the trail. There are many stretch of trail, companies would love to build up. Some very beautiful section of trails were lost forever due to legal battles - trails clubs did not have the funding to fight.

    My question to you is you pay your HOA dues to protect the area you call home. If your hiking and living on the trail for 6 months why would you not feel you should not pay a due to protect it?

    Wolf

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    people "give back" in many ways that dont involve money or trail maintenance, and it still helps support the trail and trail community. this could be turning one's kids and others onto the natural world,increased awareness of our own impact on ecosystems and the environment,or coming on to whiteblaze to share experience and knowledge.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    "Giving Back" sort of implies that you should give because you get. In a quid pro quo sort of way.

    The entire premise behind that way of thinking is flawed.

    As for the AT, anyone else notice that many doing the most maintenance often don't have so many miles on their CV. Really amazing and wonderful, that.
    rickb,

    I can see you point about a quid pro quo so how about a different way of looking it.

    Many maintenancers, as you said, don't have many miles on their CV but they are doing something they believe in. If you believe in a cause why not support it? There are different ways to show your support. Some help out by maintaining the trail, others by joining ATC or (other trail clubs).

    Wolf

  8. #48

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    AAKKK! As a volunteer with well over 500 hrs per year working on and for the Trail, I'd say the LAST thing we'd want is for people to give (time, money, other support) because they feel they HAVE to, or feel 'guilty' about 'using' the Trail. Give because you love the Trail (be it the footpath itself, the protected lands that support it, or the experience you had/are having/will have), and want to see it continue to exist for others.

    A gift of your time is probably the most highly valued, but many don't live close enough to make that possible. Money is a good second best--my personal feeling is that donations directly to a club do the most good--but ATC is an important and major part of the "three legged stool" of trail management (ATC, Clubs and Agency Partners (US Forest Service, National Park Service and various State Agencies, depending on where you are))--so don't think a donation there is "wasted".

    The notion that your tax dollar pays for the trail is not false, but consider the percentage of the Federal outlay (deficits, yes they exist) that goes to support the 8 person NPS AT office, and a few staff in various National Forests. It doesn't even register compared to the rest of the budget. The AT is one of the largest parks in the NPS systems in terms of boundary, miles of trail and even land under management. Thanks to a volunteer "staff" of over 6000 people, that small office is keeps one of the country's most iconic recreational resources open for business 24/7/365 (even during the 'shutdown', the trail was essentially open and functioning).

    Cosmo

  9. #49
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    I think one of the great things about the AT is that anyone can pull up their car and take their kids for a day hike. I would hate it if we were charged a fee to use the trail.

    That said, most people on this site are more than day hikers. The trail is a bigger part of our lives. No one should be obligated to pay anything, but the trail has given me an awful lot and I feel a sense of duty to donate time, $ and pay forward trail magic.

  10. #50
    Registered User Bucketfoot's Avatar
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    Thank you for your post Cosmo! Without the ATC the trail maintainers and the maintaining clubs the trail would not be nearly what it is. Its not all govt. funded. I believe I read recently that the ATC has purchased over 30,000 acres to protect the trail in addition to all the other things they do. If we waited for the federal gov. to fund and do all the work on the trail it would be a mess. Thank You ATC, Thank You trail maintainers and Thank You trail clubs for all that you do.

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    Should people be required to pay or give back to the trail?

    Of course not.

    But it sure would be nice if everyone were intelligent enough to appreciate the contributions that others make so that they can enjoy the trail.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand View Post
    I think one of the great things about the AT is that anyone can pull up their car and take their kids for a day hike. I would hate it if we were charged a fee to use the trail.

    That said, most people on this site are more than day hikers. The trail is a bigger part of our lives. No one should be obligated to pay anything, but the trail has given me an awful lot and I feel a sense of duty to donate time, $ and pay forward trail magic.
    After reading this post, I think I have a better understanding of this thread... maybe.

    Okay so, I don't feel like I'm obligated to the trail or I owe the trail anything as "payment" for the benefit I've received from it.

    Having said that, it's a natural process/feeling that motivates me to give back to the trail itself & the people that hike/love it.

    The act of "giving back" looks different for every individual. Cool. I like that.

    This giving not only makes the person on the receiving end feel good but also the giver. I like that as well.

  13. #53
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    Join the ATC.

  14. #54
    Registered User kayak karl's Avatar
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    give back by teaching the youth about the outdoors and the importance of preserving it.
    I'm so confused, I'm not sure if I lost my horse or found a rope.

  15. #55
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    Hikermom - Totally with you! And by the way your one of my favorite posters on this site! Your positive, upbeat and have a good attitude about the trail and people in general.

    For what it's worth Slo-go-en and Dogwood are also on my list of favorites. They have a lot of experience and I find their posts to be to the point and very informative... and drama seems to follow Dogwood's posts which is always fun!

    Kayak - Couldn't agree with you more. I have a 1 year old (16 months actually) and the thing I look forward to the most is taking him backpacking. Since we are sending praise to WF folks, I admire Teacher and Snack time for that and really hope my son gets the same joy out of the trail that snack time does!

    Ok, that's enough name dropping for one post.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayak karl View Post
    give back by teaching the youth about the outdoors and the importance of preserving it.
    + 1,000,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand View Post
    Kayak - Couldn't agree with you more. I have a 1 year old (16 months actually) and the thing I look forward to the most is taking him backpacking.
    You'll love every minute of it, and get to see everything as fresh and new in their eyes!
    Last edited by Teacher & Snacktime; 02-20-2014 at 00:26.
    "Maybe life isn't about avoiding the bruises. Maybe it's about collecting the scars to prove we showed up for it."

  17. #57
    Registered User 4eyedbuzzard's Avatar
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    Want to give back to the trail really easily with no muss or fuss or anything? Take a small trash bag with you on every hike, pick up litter along the trail and at shelters and such, and haul it out. Given all of our uberlightweight gear, we can all probably haul an extra pound or two of trash out of the woods.

    Now, back to finding a small island to exile Dogwood Bonaparte to. Wait, he's already living in Hawaii. All of a sudden, getting exiled doesn't sound so bad.

  18. #58
    Registered User Sierra2015's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    Want to give back to the trail really easily with no muss or fuss or anything? Take a small trash bag with you on every hike, pick up litter along the trail and at shelters and such, and haul it out. Given all of our uberlightweight gear, we can all probably haul an extra pound or two of trash out of the woods.

    Now, back to finding a small island to exile Dogwood Bonaparte to. Wait, he's already living in Hawaii. All of a sudden, getting exiled doesn't sound so bad.
    I read that in AWOL's book and I decided that's what I'm going to do when I walk it. (My favorite part was when he realized he dropped his own trash while he was picking up litter. Haha)

  19. #59
    Registered User 4eyedbuzzard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra2015 View Post
    I read that in AWOL's book and I decided that's what I'm going to do when I walk it. (My favorite part was when he realized he dropped his own trash while he was picking up litter. Haha)
    Ed Garvey did it on his 1970 hike. I wonder if AWOL picked up on his idea, or just had the same thought. Garvey said that at times there was more than he could haul in one bag. Amazingly, litter seems to be a constant across the decades.
    "That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett

  20. #60
    Registered User Sierra2015's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    Ed Garvey did it on his 1970 hike. I wonder if AWOL picked up on his idea, or just had the same thought. Garvey said that at times there was more than he could haul in one bag. Amazingly, litter seems to be a constant across the decades.
    Was that before or after the crying Indian?

    I don't think I can be as diligent as Garvey and I doubt I have enough intestinal fortitude in me to pick up tons of dirty things. But I'll try my best to gather plastics.

    I don't understand how people can just discard their trash in a public place. Just seems... trashy.

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