Stove Set Up Feedback

[Kc Fiedler]

I'd like to see what set ups everyone is using and what kind of success they're finding with alcohol stoves out there right now.

Right now I'm using a Starlyte alcohol stove with a slightly modified windscreen (to allow my snow peak trek 700 handles to fit).

Carry weight is 4.95 oz for the stove, windscreen, pot lid (aluminum foil), and pot.

At 7,500 feet elevation I'm getting boil times @ 6:40 on 16 fl oz of water with 25mL (.84 oz) fuel and total burn time around 7:30. I don't have an accurate thermometer on hand so I just used my cold tap water as a baseline, sorry for that uncontrolled factor. If I had to guess I'd venture to say it's about 45 - 50 degrees out of the tap.

Does anyone have suggestions for lightening this set up or alternative stove set ups that seem to be more efficient? Just looking for some input before I commit my current setup to the packing list for the summer.

[Starchild]

Jetboil is about 1 minute 10s per cup, and about 10 L + per canister for reference.

[hoppy from GA]

I use a cat food can stove, aluminum foil windscreen. I can get it, a 4 oz fuel bottle, and a shortened spork inside of my med. titanium cup w/ lid. Andrew Skurka has a good video on making one. super easy. I know its cheap and not pretty, but it has never failed me. Used it down to 15 degrees. I don't sweat boil times. Not going anywhere. It boils water, it works.

[Kc Fiedler]

Thanks for your input. To clarify, I'm trying to get some feedback on other people's stove efficiencies. So, if anyone has data on their fuel use correlated to volume of water boiled that would be really helpful. I don't care about boil times, really I'm not in a rush to get the water boiling. I'm just trying to find out if anyone has a significantly more fuel efficient set up out there...

[Odd Man Out]

I have data.

I have a Starlyte. It is the variation without the pot stand. I'm using it with an Olicamp XTS pot. That is a 1 L anodized Al pot with a heat exchanger bottom. I made a pot stand out of hardware cloth and a wind screen out of Al flashing. I put a piece of foil and carbon felt underneath to reflect heat, insulate the stove, and protect the surface.

Are you looking for power or efficiency? I define power at the rate at which the water is heated and efficiency as how much heat goes in the water per gram of fuel burned. I doubt that you will gain much in efficiencies, unless you go to a propane canister stove, because you have a center-burning stove that doesn't need priming. Alky stoves that need priming lose efficiency because fuel burned when priming don't heat the water. Side burners lose efficiency if they send too many flames up the side of the pot. The one thing that may help you is a pot with a heat exchange like my Olicamp XTS. I would like to try my system with a TI pot to measure how much that exchange helps. I can say that I can feel very little heat coming up the side of the pot while heating and while burning, the wind screen is barely warm. I assume from this that my efficiency is near optimum, so I have focused my tests on on optimizing power.

What you will find with this stove is that the heat output (power) dies out as it runs out of fuel. You see in this post (link below), when I put a full load of fuel in the stove (about 45 mL) I got a boil of 2 cups in just under 5 minutes. With 15 mL of fuel, the power was much lower and it didn't quite come to boil after 7 minutes.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...=1#post1831074

If you scroll down on that thread, you will see another graph that show how I calculated the power as the stove was burning out to be about 60% of the power when fully loaded with fuel. An advantage of the Starlyte without the pot stand is that it has a plastic lid. That along with the fuel absorbing wick means you can load up the stove all the way (almost 50 mL), burn until you are done, blow it or snuff it out, and put it away with the excess fuel still in the stove. No need to measure or guess how much fuel you might need for your meal.

Here is another thread about my system from when I was just getting started.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...lts&highlight=

My system isn't lighter than yours, but if you were to swap out your Starlyte for a Starlyte with lid and pot stand, you would gain some versatility, convenience, and power (with very little weight penalty). You might get a bump in efficiency with an Olicamp XTS, but with a bigger weight penalty.

[RedBeerd]

KC, I saw nearly identical numbers at 7-8000 feet with a Supercat Cat Can Stove using DNA, and nearly identical weight with my .9 evernew Ti pot, windscreen, and stove.


Alcohol stoves are fun to tinker with and score some cool points, but for the upcoming trails season I am going back to a canister stove. The small weight penalty is worth the ease and convenience, IMO!

[magic_game03]

KC, I saw nearly identical numbers at 7-8000 feet with a Supercat Cat Can Stove using DNA, and nearly identical weight with my .9 evernew Ti pot, windscreen, and stove.


Alcohol stoves are fun to tinker with and score some cool points, but for the upcoming trails season I am going back to a canister stove. The small weight penalty is worth the ease and convenience, IMO!

IMO, I completely agree with RedBeard. Some people are fine with no stove, some people are good with just hot water, and some people like to boil. Me, I like convince and I like to boil.

[Kc Fiedler]

I have data.

I have a Starlyte. It is the variation without the pot stand. I'm using it with an Olicamp XTS pot. That is a 1 L anodized Al pot with a heat exchanger bottom. I made a pot stand out of hardware cloth and a wind screen out of Al flashing. I put a piece of foil and carbon felt underneath to reflect heat, insulate the stove, and protect the surface.

Are you looking for power or efficiency? I define power at the rate at which the water is heated and efficiency as how much heat goes in the water per gram of fuel burned. I doubt that you will gain much in efficiencies, unless you go to a propane canister stove, because you have a center-burning stove that doesn't need priming. Alky stoves that need priming lose efficiency because fuel burned when priming don't heat the water. Side burners lose efficiency if they send too many flames up the side of the pot. The one thing that may help you is a pot with a heat exchange like my Olicamp XTS. I would like to try my system with a TI pot to measure how much that exchange helps. I can say that I can feel very little heat coming up the side of the pot while heating and while burning, the wind screen is barely warm. I assume from this that my efficiency is near optimum, so I have focused my tests on on optimizing power.

What you will find with this stove is that the heat output (power) dies out as it runs out of fuel. You see in this post (link below), when I put a full load of fuel in the stove (about 45 mL) I got a boil of 2 cups in just under 5 minutes. With 15 mL of fuel, the power was much lower and it didn't quite come to boil after 7 minutes.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...=1#post1831074

If you scroll down on that thread, you will see another graph that show how I calculated the power as the stove was burning out to be about 60% of the power when fully loaded with fuel. An advantage of the Starlyte without the pot stand is that it has a plastic lid. That along with the fuel absorbing wick means you can load up the stove all the way (almost 50 mL), burn until you are done, blow it or snuff it out, and put it away with the excess fuel still in the stove. No need to measure or guess how much fuel you might need for your meal.

Here is another thread about my system from when I was just getting started.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...lts&highlight=

My system isn't lighter than yours, but if you were to swap out your Starlyte for a Starlyte with lid and pot stand, you would gain some versatility, convenience, and power (with very little weight penalty). You might get a bump in efficiency with an Olicamp XTS, but with a bigger weight penalty.

I noticed that the power seems to diminish when the fuel became about 80% burned up as well. It seems that the last minute or so worth of burn time is significantly less powerful. When I tested my stove with 20 mL of fuel it burned for 6:40 and didn't boil the water. With 25 mL of fuel it burned for ~7:30 and the water boiled right at 6:40. Seems that last minute worth of fuel isn't as "powerful" as the rest.

Where about in MI are you from? I'd be happy to lend my Ti pot for a comparison experiment to see how the numbers play out. PM me if you like.

KC, I saw nearly identical numbers at 7-8000 feet with a Supercat Cat Can Stove using DNA, and nearly identical weight with my .9 evernew Ti pot, windscreen, and stove.


Alcohol stoves are fun to tinker with and score some cool points, but for the upcoming trails season I am going back to a canister stove. The small weight penalty is worth the ease and convenience, IMO!

I love tinkering with things and testing them. That's part of my infatuation with gear and numbers. Thanks for confirming that my numbers seem to be on par. That's helpful.

[Another Kevin]

5 oz for the complete kit and a reliable boil of a half-litre of water on 25 ml of alky is pretty good. We're getting down into "don't sweat the small stuff" territory here!

I disagree with the poster who says that an alcohol stove that has to be primed loses efficiency because the heat from the priming fuel is wasted. That's true if you can't put the pot on until it's primed, but a design like the Penny Stove 2.0 or the Zen Stove pressurized burner lets you use the surplus heat from the priming flame.

The reason I like my Penny Stove is that once it's primed, its heat output stays quite uniform throughout the burn. The penny functions as a pressure regulator. I modified it to add bottom priming so that I can run it in cold weather. I've run it in zero-degree weather with very few problems. I have a weird issue that once in a while it primes, burns and goes out with unburnt fuel still inside when it's that cold, unless I fuel it up for a longer burn than I need. I've not figured that one out; when it happens, I refuel, let it burn long, and make a second cup of coffee or something.

If I were out where I thought that melting snow would likely be my only water source, I'd bring a naphtha stove. But I find that the 'fiddle factor' of my Penny is pretty low.

[zelph]

Penny Stove 2.0 has fiddle factors. 1 loose penny that can get misplaced. Fill stove, place penny on top then add priming fuel on top of penny. Place pot support around stove, place pot on support and then light. As in the case of "Another Kevins stove, it may go out with unburnt fuel remaining. Needs an additional priming pan in winter temperatures.

Everyone should make and use a Penny Stove 2.0 and see how they like it. We need more interest in DIY stoves.

The efficiency of the StarLyte stove is awesome. Trail Designs, inventor of the Caldera Cone has incorporated the StarLyte into their line of cone kits as a companion if not a replacement to the 12-10 stove. The StarLyte Stove weighs only 1/2 ounce.

The efficiency of the stove is constant under ideal conditions. Variables that can change efficiency are numerous; use of windscreen, fuel brand and type, an aluminum pot versus Titanium etc.

[Weather-man]

In terms of raw efficiency, for just boiling water, a jet boil is hard to beat though that efficiency is somewhat mitigated if your resupplies are every few days.

I just transitioned from a Soto and 900ml Ti pot. That total system with a fresh 110 gram can was around 20 oz, IIRC. that included everything....cozy, lid, wind screen, lighter, etc..

What I've started using for 3 season hikes is a set up similar to yours...a Starlyte, a Foster's flat bottom can and GG cozy. Total weight is around 10oz which includes 8oz of alcohol, lighter, smaller/lighter wind screen, etc...

Edit:

I had my weights wrong. I just weighed everything and the data is...

- The soto/900ml Ti pot set up (with everything) is at 19.3oz

- My Starlyte/Beer can set up is 11.45 oz with 8oz of fuel

Salient is that after 5 days my Soto will be at 15.3oz, + or - , and the alcohol stove set up will be at about 4.5oz, + or -.

[Odd Man Out]

I disagree with the poster who says that an alcohol stove that has to be primed loses efficiency because the heat from the priming fuel is wasted. That's true if you can't put the pot on until it's primed, but a design like the Penny Stove 2.0 or the Zen Stove pressurized burner lets you use the surplus heat from the priming flame.

You are correct. I was thinking of something like a bottle stove or super cat (side burner) where you prime them until they bloom. If you put the pot on too early, they tend to go out.

[trw0007]

Just did a little testing outside.

2 cups of water from the cold side of the faucet, probably in the 50 degree range, into a 26oz Snow Peak Ti pot (http://www.snowpeak.com/cookware/bac...-stw-001t.html). I did three boils.

The first was a MSR Pocket Rocket, no lid, no windscreen at nearly full power. Although not a realistic setup, I wanted a baseline for performance. I had a rolling boil at 2:40. At 2:00 water was in the hot enough range for instant potatoes, coffee, etc.

Second test was the Super Cat Fire Bucket system with about 1mm of clearance around the pot. 1oz of denatured alcohol and 25 seconds of priming. The stove burned for 6:50 and the water never reached a rolling boil, but was in the hot enough range.

Third test was set up the same, but with the lid on the pot (the frying pan that comes with the set). After a 25 second prime I placed the pot and lid on the stove, only to have the stove nearly go out. I removed the pot and tried again but with the same effect. I removed the lid, placed the pot on the stove and then the lid on top. My timer was around 1:20 at this point. I periodically checked the water and had a rolling boil by 6:20. The stove burned out at 7:00.

I'll continue to fiddle around with my set-up as I believe I can improve on both efficiency and boil time. Obviously a lid makes a huge difference and I suspect an aluminum foil lid will result in a faster boil time as Al has a higher reflectance than Ti. Polishing the inside of the fire bucket may help marginally as well, although that is no help to you. This is also with my first stove and I am planning on messing with hole diameter and placement to see if there is any improvement.

[trw0007]

Also: I do not have a scale and did not weigh my set up. The Fire Bucket itself is claimed at 2.5 oz, but I suspect mine is heavier (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Fire-Bucket/index.html).

Testing was done at ~700 feet.

[Kc Fiedler]

Just did a little testing outside.

2 cups of water from the cold side of the faucet, probably in the 50 degree range, into a 26oz Snow Peak Ti pot (http://www.snowpeak.com/cookware/bac...-stw-001t.html). I did three boils.

The first was a MSR Pocket Rocket, no lid, no windscreen at nearly full power. Although not a realistic setup, I wanted a baseline for performance. I had a rolling boil at 2:40. At 2:00 water was in the hot enough range for instant potatoes, coffee, etc.

Second test was the Super Cat Fire Bucket system with about 1mm of clearance around the pot. 1oz of denatured alcohol and 25 seconds of priming. The stove burned for 6:50 and the water never reached a rolling boil, but was in the hot enough range.

Third test was set up the same, but with the lid on the pot (the frying pan that comes with the set). After a 25 second prime I placed the pot and lid on the stove, only to have the stove nearly go out. I removed the pot and tried again but with the same effect. I removed the lid, placed the pot on the stove and then the lid on top. My timer was around 1:20 at this point. I periodically checked the water and had a rolling boil by 6:20. The stove burned out at 7:00.

I'll continue to fiddle around with my set-up as I believe I can improve on both efficiency and boil time. Obviously a lid makes a huge difference and I suspect an aluminum foil lid will result in a faster boil time as Al has a higher reflectance than Ti. Polishing the inside of the fire bucket may help marginally as well, although that is no help to you. This is also with my first stove and I am planning on messing with hole diameter and placement to see if there is any improvement.

Cool!!! Thanks for posting your numbers. Let me know how further tests work out and if you find anything that seems to enhance efficiency.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Obviously a lid makes a huge difference and I suspect an aluminum foil lid will result in a faster boil time as Al has a higher reflectance than Ti. Polishing the inside of the fire bucket may help marginally as well, although that is no help to you. This is also with my first stove and I am planning on messing with hole diameter and placement to see if there is any improvement.

The reflectance of a lid and its effect on heat loss will likely be so small as to be unmeasurable without really expensive instruments and environmental/lab controls. Lids have very little effect on radiative heat loss because radiative loss is very small. Lids work predominantly by trapping the heat that would normally be lost to evaporation (water vapor/steam) and returning it to the system via the hot condensation. Lids also cut convective loss to some degree. Radiative loss is the least of the three losses and is negligible when compared to evaporation and convection losses.

[Sierra2015]

The reflectance of a lid and its effect on heat loss will likely be so small as to be unmeasurable without really expensive instruments and environmental/lab controls. Lids have very little effect on radiative heat loss because radiative loss is very small. Lids work predominantly by trapping the heat that would normally be lost to evaporation (water vapor/steam) and returning it to the system via the hot condensation. Lids also cut convective loss to some degree. Radiative loss is the least of the three losses and is negligible when compared to evaporation and convection losses.

You sound like a rocket scientist I know. (Though, I'm so ignorant everyone sounds like a scientist.)

What do you do?

[trw0007]

The reflectance of a lid and its effect on heat loss will likely be so small as to be unmeasurable without really expensive instruments and environmental/lab controls. Lids have very little effect on radiative heat loss because radiative loss is very small. Lids work predominantly by trapping the heat that would normally be lost to evaporation (water vapor/steam) and returning it to the system via the hot condensation. Lids also cut convective loss to some degree. Radiative loss is the least of the three losses and is negligible when compared to evaporation and convection losses.

Thanks for the feedback. I know ThermaRest advertises reflective coatings in their pads, so I was thinking I might be able to grab a little efficiency there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kc Fiedler]

You'll get a little efficiency definitely. Measurable? Maybe. Probably not. Have you tried using header paint? Black header paint on the bottom and outside of the pot. It's worth trying. Not sure if it'd change the numbers but it's worth a shot. Also aluminum foil on the ground under the stove. Again worth a try but not sure how much it will change the numbers. I'm going to make some of these modifications myself and see what it does for my numbers.

[4eyedbuzzard]

You sound like a rocket scientist I know. (Though, I'm so ignorant everyone sounds like a scientist.)

What do you do?

Whatever they (bosses) tell me. I'm currently in industrial maintenance in the security printing industry. Formerly a field engineer and electrician in chemical, brewing, steel, and aerospace industries for roughly 30 years. Earned Business and Accounting degrees after a severe back injury put me out of work in 2007, but couldn't find opportunities in those fields after graduating in 2010. Luck turned better (both my back and job prospects) and I went back and taught apprentice electricians for a while, did a short stint in HR (fascinating but high pressure), and ultimately wound up in my current really great job.