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  1. #81
    Registered User swjohnsey's Avatar
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    If you are blind or deaf and have a service dog I don't think folks will give you a second thought. The PTSD folks, on the other hand . . .

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by squeezebox View Post
    But the dog does not have a right to it's space if it's not a genuine service dog. We don't have to put up with illegal activity for the sake of some jerk's personal space. One of our society's major problems now. So my space doesn't count only the jerk's space?
    If the jerk is intruding on my space I have a right to stick my nose in his business, isn't that what he is doing to me?
    It's the if that's the issue. Pretend you have the legitimate service dog. Do you want every hiker you meet to be questioning your medical history at every turn of the trail? Keep in mind it is your civil right to have the service dog. Common courtesy would be to assume the person is legitimate (innocent) not a fraud (guilty). Or imagine this one. You have a medical condition and are prescribed medicine. You put your medication in a baggie when you go hiking. Do you want to get questioned by anybody who sees it because they think your popping Oxycontin? Prescription drugs are a rampant problem. Now you might want to have the prescription handy or the prescription bottle to avoid misunderstanding with law enforcement, but as far as other hikers go, it's your business. Should others demand to see your prescription bottle, call your doctor? Even with identification tags and registration, like handicap license plates, that's for law enforcement and the appropriate managers. Do you walk up to people after they have parked in the blue spot and start asking them their medical history?

    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    Much as you can't tell which kid is going to spray paint rocks at a view until you see the paint can, the same is true for people who are trying to get one over on Rangers with fake service animal credentials until they give themselves away. Both are rule breaking and actionable by LEO's in areas where graffiti or pets are not allowed. Its up to us to turn them in or not. I am all for it, given the problems we have with taggers, open fires in no-fire areas, and other juvenile behavior.

    Asking people about their service animals is not all that necessary and can lead to unwanted confrontations. Just observing these people and their service dogs should be enough to tell you if they are legitimate. If the dog wanders all over hell and back, noses into others food and is a general nuisance, likely its not legitimate. If you watch how the animal takes commands and follows them, that will tell the story. Service dogs are typically well trained both for the help they provide and because they will be around people or in different environments that will challenge its instinctive reactions (protection, barking, etc). If someone has to repeatedly tell a service dog to sit, stay, or keep quiet, its likely not.
    Absolutely. Real service dogs are well trained just look at how expensive they are. I am not saying give the frauds a free pass either. There are some non-intrusive questions you can ask that might lead to figuring it out.

    1. If you are in a place where no pets are allowed, go ahead and ask if it’s a service dog. Neutrally. “Oh, is that a service dog??” (If dogs are allowed no point in proceeding, the dog’s legal already.) Pay attention to the answer and body language. If it is not a service dog, and they say it is, the person is lying. There are tells for liars.
    2. Before you spend much time in the area with the person, ask if you can pet the dog. Generally, petting the dog is a no go. Their natural reaction is going to be, “no the dog is working.” They are likely to tell you exactly that as people try to pet service dogs all the time. Specifically asking is an opening for the owner to tell you no and convey that message. The fraud is much more likely to give you a regular dog owner answer. If they say just “No”, ask if the dog bites or is very aggressive. Normal dog questions. Offering to pet the dog will lower their guard as you are telegraphing, "I like dogs".
    3. If you are in close proximity for a period of time, ask “What does the dog do”. A legitimate owner will know this is an acceptable question and will give you a matter of fact answer “Fido is trained for medical alert”. The fraud may not answer right away if they have not practiced their lie, particularly if you don’t say “trained for”. They have to think about the answer because they are lying. It might come out smooth though. So express concern and ask “Does the dog signal that, is there anything I can do for you if your dog alerts? Is there some medicine you need would I need to call you some help?” Tailor it to the flow of the conversation. Say it very clearly and not too fast. You should get a straight answer at this point. If they are fumbling around it’s probably because they have to formulate an answer, and they don’t have a canned answer ready. A legitimate owner knows exactly what the dog will do and what treatment they need.

    Straightforward, simple non-intrusive questions-Is it a service dog—Can I pet your dog—What does the dog do. Between that and observing the dog, decide if it adds up or not to being legitimate. If no, snap a “selfie” with the camera set the wrong way and you can forward that to somebody whose job it is to handle these things.
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  3. #83
    Registered User vamelungeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    That literally would take an act of Congress... which by definition isn't "simple".
    Congress passes and changes laws every day.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by vamelungeon View Post
    Congress passes and changes laws every day.



    and, mark my words, they will pass a law for service dogs within the next five years....

    with all the abuse of people passing their pets off as service dogs---a law will happen..........

    as well as it should...............

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    It's the if that's the issue. Pretend you have the legitimate service dog. Do you want every hiker you meet to be questioning your medical history at every turn of the trail? Keep in mind it is your civil right to have the service dog. Common courtesy would be to assume the person is legitimate (innocent) not a fraud (guilty). Or imagine this one. You have a medical condition and are prescribed medicine. You put your medication in a baggie when you go hiking. Do you want to get questioned by anybody who sees it because they think your popping Oxycontin? Prescription drugs are a rampant problem. Now you might want to have the prescription handy or the prescription bottle to avoid misunderstanding with law enforcement, but as far as other hikers go, it's your business. Should others demand to see your prescription bottle, call your doctor? Even with identification tags and registration, like handicap license plates, that's for law enforcement and the appropriate managers. Do you walk up to people after they have parked in the blue spot and start asking them their medical history?

    Absolutely. Real service dogs are well trained just look at how expensive they are. I am not saying give the frauds a free pass either. There are some non-intrusive questions you can ask that might lead to figuring it out.

    1. If you are in a place where no pets are allowed, go ahead and ask if it’s a service dog. Neutrally. “Oh, is that a service dog??” (If dogs are allowed no point in proceeding, the dog’s legal already.) Pay attention to the answer and body language. If it is not a service dog, and they say it is, the person is lying. There are tells for liars.
    2. Before you spend much time in the area with the person, ask if you can pet the dog. Generally, petting the dog is a no go. Their natural reaction is going to be, “no the dog is working.” They are likely to tell you exactly that as people try to pet service dogs all the time. Specifically asking is an opening for the owner to tell you no and convey that message. The fraud is much more likely to give you a regular dog owner answer. If they say just “No”, ask if the dog bites or is very aggressive. Normal dog questions. Offering to pet the dog will lower their guard as you are telegraphing, "I like dogs".
    3. If you are in close proximity for a period of time, ask “What does the dog do”. A legitimate owner will know this is an acceptable question and will give you a matter of fact answer “Fido is trained for medical alert”. The fraud may not answer right away if they have not practiced their lie, particularly if you don’t say “trained for”. They have to think about the answer because they are lying. It might come out smooth though. So express concern and ask “Does the dog signal that, is there anything I can do for you if your dog alerts? Is there some medicine you need would I need to call you some help?” Tailor it to the flow of the conversation. Say it very clearly and not too fast. You should get a straight answer at this point. If they are fumbling around it’s probably because they have to formulate an answer, and they don’t have a canned answer ready. A legitimate owner knows exactly what the dog will do and what treatment they need.

    Straightforward, simple non-intrusive questions-Is it a service dog—Can I pet your dog—What does the dog do. Between that and observing the dog, decide if it adds up or not to being legitimate. If no, snap a “selfie” with the camera set the wrong way and you can forward that to somebody whose job it is to handle these things.
    Thanks. Seems like very helpful advice.
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  6. #86
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    Why is this such a big question? Why can't the ranger ask to see your and your dogs certificate. Alcohol sellers are required to card people under 30 yr old. Again I've never met a handicapped person when I asked about their condition get defensive. I've asked people who just hoped out of their car with handicaped tags and got "That's my grandma's tag" my response " It's illegal for you to use it without her with you" his response FU.
    Geez just act right, it's not that difficult, and you'll feel better about yourself.

  7. #87
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    Again I've never met a handicapped person when I asked about their condition get defensive.


    typically the people that get defensive are the ones who are knowingly breaking the rules..........

    hence my previous posts................

  8. #88
    Registered User kayak karl's Avatar
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    i know 3 people with service dogs. they got them from the south jersey K-9 division. dogs that didn't make the cut. i do not know what the dogs do physically for them, but they will not shut up about what positive things there now best friend does for their life. you can hear the love in their voice and almost to tears how their life has improved. i think if a hiker had a service dog he would be bragging about how if it wasn't for his dog, he would not be hiking.

    does anyone have a service dog? what are your views on this subject?
    I'm so confused, I'm not sure if I lost my horse or found a rope.

  9. #89
    Registered User swjohnsey's Avatar
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    I don't know anyone with a service dog. In my whole life I have known one person, a blind teacher who worked at the same school, who had a service dog. I had no problem with that person or her dog. I do have a problem with someone with mental issues that wants to take their pet everywhere.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by squeezebox View Post
    Why is this such a big question? Why can't the ranger ask to see your and your dogs certificate. ...
    Because there is no officially recognized certificate.

    And perhaps that's the answer, make sure the dog is a service dog, having to be state certified as such, and given a state issued (dog friendly) 'license plate' to be displayed on the dog at times when he/she is acting as a service animal. This in no way lets people know what the service is, so the privacy of the person is totally preserved. It would also set a standard that service dogs would have to come up to to be considered service animals which should help the disabled person by providing a minimum level of training that the dog must pass before it is considered a service animal.

    Now the above would not mean that the person needs such services that the dog can offer, however it would appear to stop the problem stated in it's tracks, people who abuse the system would most likely not be able to get their dog state certified and would not have the doggie license plate to display.

  11. #91

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    Think before you speak
    Always speak directly to the person with a disability, not to his companion, aide or sign language interpreter. Making small talk with a person who has a disability is great; just talk to him as you would with anyone else. Respect his privacy. If you ask about his disability, he may feel like you are treating him as a disability, not as a human being. However, many people with disabilities are comfortable with questions about their disability after getting to know someone. A simple “I don’t feel comfortable sharing that” by the person with a disability can set the tone if it is not something that he/she is willing to share.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability_etiquette

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  12. #92

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    Out of the millions of visitors to GSMNP, I suspect very few of them have service dogs and those who do likely go to the same places the majority of visitors go - the car camp grounds and a hike up to Clingmans Dome or maybe Charlies Bunion. I would further guess that the number of handicapped persons with service dogs who go camping in the back country is almost non-existent for a number of reasons.

    But then come along the thru hikers with an unusually large number of service dogs, hikers with no obvious need for one. It's enough to make one very suspicious. Since it well known that it is expensive to kennel a dog or get shuttled around the park, there is motivation to sneaking one's dog through the park by claiming it's a "service dog". Therefore these hikers should require more scrutiny and need to be held to a higher standard of proof then the typical tourist. Persons with a legitimate need for a service dog should be fine with this as it is in their best interests to ferret out the cheaters. If the problem persists or gets worse the park could very well take the nuclear option of banning service dogs from the back country altogether.

    I don't know why this issue bothers me since it's unlikely to directly affect me in anyway, it just does.
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  13. #93
    Registered User kayak karl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swjohnsey View Post
    I do have a problem with someone with mental issues that wants to take their pet everywhere.
    so YOU will decide where this person can and can not go ?? what gives anybody that right?
    I'm so confused, I'm not sure if I lost my horse or found a rope.

  14. #94
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    I would rather have a few people get away with "fake" service dogs (regardless of where it is), than to deny a single disabled person from experiencing their God given right to live their life to the fullest potential possible. Life is short and its a BIG planet. As for the trail, if you can't share a little space in the great outdoors with another human being and a dog, then perhaps you should reflect on what's important in life... just my opinion.
    Biggie

  15. #95
    Registered User swjohnsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayak karl View Post
    so YOU will decide where this person can and can not go ?? what gives anybody that right?
    Who are you to tell me I can't have my service elephant in the shelter with me! Who?

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Bill View Post
    Fake service dogs are all over. See this article, http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...0/pets-allowed I see blatantly fake "service" dogs on public transit daily.
    That was a fun read. Thanks.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    If you are not law enforcement, or associated with trail management, it's not cool to be violating someone's civil rights. It's not cool when the police do it for that matter. It's also whacked to think it's ok to be that intrusive because the person could just leave. They have a right to their personal space right where they are.
    You are delusional if you think one individual asking another about their special dog violates civil rights. The civil right is to not be discriminated against because of the disability.

    Ive encountered only a few real ones, which leads me to believe they are very rare. Should be evem rarer on the trail. When my children were small they wanted to pet one, i wouldnt let them, and the owner did . they happily answered questions about their dog.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 01-08-2015 at 22:20.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    You are delusional if you think one individual asking another about their special dog violates civil rights. The civil right is to not be discriminated against because of the disability.

    Ive encountered only a few real ones, which leads me to believe they are very rare. When my children were small they wanted to pet one, i wouldnt let them, and the owner did . they happily answered questions about their dog.
    They are only allowed to be asked two questions about the service dog, but you seem to think you can question them in detail as much as you want about it. If a ranger can't do it, because he or she would be violating the ADA, what makes you think you should be doing it?



    • When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    They are only allowed to ask two questions about the service dog, but you seem to think you can question them in detail as much as you want about it. If a ranger can't do it, because he or she would be violating the ADA, what makes you think you should be doing it?



    • When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
    Because im just a person, not an entity that can discriminate against them in providing services, it doesnt apply to me.

    The purpose is to protect them from discrimination and public embarassment by service providers. Not from conversations with other people.

    Its like if someone has one arm, you can ignore it, but everyone wants know what happened. Its generally a good ice breaker too. If you dont ask, they know you want to anyway. It makes things less uncomfortable for all if you ask.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 01-08-2015 at 22:38.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Because im just a person, not an entity that can discriminate against them in providing services, it doesnt apply to me.

    The purpose is to protect them from discrimination and public embarassment by service providers. Not from conversations with other people.

    Its like if someone has one arm, you can ignore it, but everyone wants know what happened. Its generally a good ice breaker too. If you dont ask, they know you want to anyway. It makes things less uncomfortable for all if you ask.
    You are assuming that everyone with a disability is going to want to discuss it with strangers. That is definitely not the case, see post #91. They might have PTSD for instance. You have indicated you would keep questioning and they could leave if they want to. Suppose it's night at a shelter in the Smokies. That's what this thread is about. They are supposed to just sit there and you can just keep peppering them with questions? You seem to think that that's ok.
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