Service Dogs with Thru-Hikers, GSMNP

[Slo-go'en]

I decided to email the park and find out exactly what their policy is. This is the reply I got:

Service animals are permitted on the park trails as long as they meet the following qualifications: Service animals are defined as DOGS that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples are guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, alerting and protecting people who is having a seizure, as well as other disabilities of the owner. Service animals are working animals and not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person's disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA. If the service animals meets these qualifications the service animal would be permitted to accompany the owner on trails in the park and shelter.


A thru hiker is a person who is starting their hike more than 50 miles outside the park and plans to continue their hike more than 50 out the other end of the park.


George Luther


Best regards, Great Smoky Mountains National Park

So, if you have a physical handicap which requires a service dog, your okay in the park.

[Traveler]

Most businesses and govt officials are very hesitant, and pretty much tiptoe, when it comes to service animals.

Legally, all that can be asked

(1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

So, if a person simply says "Yes" and "Medical alert" , most officials are hesitant to pursue beyond that point. As with others, I am surprised BSP was able to ferret out the owners with fake service dog credentials. Very unusual in our law-suit happy society.

Hence the "loophole" that many less than scrupulous people are using to their benefit.

I wonder if the BSP officials asked to see the animal perform the service work it was trained to perform. Could it have been that simple?

[squeezebox]

I think that the majority of folks that ask this question are just trying to get their dog into the park under the radar. I've never met a handicapped person with an entitlement chip on their shoulder. I've met lots of "average " people that think I'm supposed to put up with them and their dogs anti social behavior.
I think the Ranger should have the option of having THEIR physician to check out the persons " disability " and have 'THEIR " dog trainer check out the dog. At the owners expense. And file a complaint against the cheat lawyer or physician that filed the fraud paperwork , a complaint against your license is a big deal. I would love to see more handicapped accessable sections of trails, Just don't lie about your selfish mental disability, and save it for the folks that really are disabled.

[squeezebox]

I believe that physician to physician information is allowed.

[Mags]

I wonder if the BSP officials asked to see the animal perform the service work it was trained to perform. Could it have been that simple?

That would be against ADA regulations. So, I do not think so. I suspect it is something along what Rick stated.

[TNhiker]

from the earlier baxter letter thread---

here's what the kid with the dog said in his blog......sounds like the kid knew he was breaking the law and really didnt give a *****......


"He wasn’t wearing a uniform, but all his matching gear gave him kind of an “official” look. He stopped next to katana and knelt down and said “this is a fine looking dog, may I ask if it’s a service dog?” “The jig is up” I thought to myself. I could have lied I suppose and told him she was a service dog, but being forthright just seemed like the right path at this stage. I had been caught fair and square in my game of cat and mouse. “No she is not” I replied. “Are you aware that it is against park policy for non service animals to be up here?” He answered. “Yes I am” I replied. He seemed a little surprised by my honest answers, and a little unsure of what to do. This led me to believe that he was probably not a ranger, but probably someone who worked closely with the park, or was friends with those who did. The last thing he said to me was “You know that you’re cheating the system by having a dog up here right?” I thought about that statement for a few seconds and then said…..”do you know why I came out here on this journey for 6 and a half months?” He didn’t say anything. “Because **** the system” I said, and continued my climb down. He didn’t say anything else to me. I’m positive he called down to alert officials though, as you will see in just a moment. Maybe that wasn’t the best thing to say to someone in that situation, but in my flurry of emotions, it just felt right. In a way, this whole journey kind of felt like you were sticking it to “the man”. Like “look at me! I can live in the woods, do what I want and be happy without having to deal with your stupid social norms, rules and expectations of being a productive drone to a depressed society!” This felt like the cherry on top to all of it. ""

[Alligator]

The letter from Bissell to Tipton and Janssen mentions hikers boasting in local establishments about pulling one over on Baxter. Two hikers were fined for having pets in the park (BSP) after falsely representing their dogs as service animals.

[Grampie]

As someone who is planning a NOBO through hike with a service dog starting March of 2015, I see a few things I'd like to address in this thread:

First, a prescription is not required to obtain a service dog. While prescriptions are sometimes written, there is no pharmacy where you turn in a script, and get a dog. A *recommendation* from a medical provider (whether a therapist, M.D., etc), is one of many first steps to acquiring a trained service dog.

Second, in regards to service dogs and the National Park System (Federally Regulated): http://www.nps.gov/policy/serviceanimals.pdf

"After careful review of the issues related to the use of service animals in the national parks, and based on the advice provided by the Solicitor’s Office, we conclude that we are legally required by Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act to allow all types of service animals into the parks."

"According to DOJ guidance, in most instances we carmot require individuals to show proof of disability nor to show official certification for their service animal."

"If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual with a disability is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability, and such documentation may not be required as a condition for allowing them in the park."

Third, the comments regarding the denying of someone with a disability access to a public facility because of their requisite accommodations (in this case, a trail shelter) is asinine. What isn't outlandish, and this is extremely important, is that the service animal MUST be trained well enough to not show aggression, fear, excessive startle reactions, etc. while being in said public place. We train our dogs *extremely* well, but please remember that in the end, they're just dogs!

And please, don't even think about trying to charge someone with a disability **extra**, because that's totally illegal (http://www.ada.gov/t3hilght.htm):

"Extra charges may not be imposed on individuals with disabilities to cover the costs of measures necessary to ensure nondiscriminatory treatment, or to cover the costs of measures used as alternatives to barrier removal."

OK. After reading the above post, and all the rest, I have come to the following conclusion. I want to thru-hike the AT and I want to bring my loving dog with me. Every day we spend time together. This together time makes me forget all my daily life hardships. The time spent with my dog puts me at ease.
The rules for a thru-hiker in the Smokey Mountains National Park are that "no pets are allowed." To not bring my loving dog through the Smokeys with me would be very hard emotionaly. I do not want to spend $200-$300 to have my dog boarded and transported around the park. What can I do to beat the system.
I go on line. Various web sites offer certification that my dog is a "personal comfort dog." I spend the $100.00 , get my certificate and a nice vest for my dog to wear and off I go to hike. I am now legitimate and I can bring my dog anywhere and disregard the rules.

[Slo-go'en]

I go on line. Various web sites offer certification that my dog is a "personal comfort dog." I spend the $100.00 , get my certificate and a nice vest for my dog to wear and off I go to hike. I am now legitimate and I can bring my dog anywhere and disregard the rules.

No, you must have a physical handicap for which a dog is required to assist you with and be properly trained to perform that service.

(ii) The crime-deterrent effects of an animal's presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this provision.

Further:
(3) An individual may be asked to remove a service animal from an area closed to pets if:
(i) The animal is out of control and the animal's handler does not take effective action to control it;
(ii) The animal is not housebroken; or
(iii) It is not readily apparent and the individual with a disability is unwilling or unable to articulate or demonstrate the work or task the animal has been trained to perform, consistent with paragraph (b)(1)(i) of this section.

[rickb]

No, you must have a physical handicap for which a dog is required to assist you with and be properly trained to perform that service.

(ii) The crime-deterrent effects of an animal's presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, .....

Could you please provide a link or cite for this?

My googling only turned up this as a PROPOSAL made in early 2014 for a CHANGE to the current law/regulation which IF APPROVED would apply only to certain NPS properties. And even if approved would IN NO WAY apply to areas outside these parks.

Without a definite cite and understanding of where and how this applies, I'd be careful with this information.

[Mags]

It is not "just" an obvious physical handicap. People have service dogs for medical alerts, PTSD (see the article I linked earlier), epilepsy, etc.

Just to recap, all a person has to answer is "Yes, it is a service dog" and any simply say "Medical alert" or "PTSD" (as one example)

No proof needed, no ID needed, no need to demonstrate how the medical alert works.

It will take a LOT to change those ADA regs.

For some people, the ADA rules are a god-send and wonderful.

For less scrupulous people, it is a loop-hole to exploit. All you need to do is indeed spend less than $100 to get a vest and "act like you own the place". Other articles mention you can buy laminated cards to pass out with the ADA regs and the not-so-subtle mention of a lawsuit if the business or govt official persists in questioning.

http://www.amazon.com/Service-Inform.../dp/B00FY4UXM2

"Instead of trying to simply explain your rights hand them one of these cards and watch them shut up. Businesses that violate these laws are subject to heavy fines."

:O

I've personally seen this more and more. I was in RMNP and a young man in his 20s was climbing hiking Longs Peak. Even on the "easy' route it is 15+ miles and 5000' gain r/t with some class-three, if well marked, scrambling. He had a dog, was walking at a good pace and kept on yelling "service dog". I actually caught the guy smirking just after someone asked him.

Maybe it was legitimate....probably not.

Again, however, if I was an official/business owner, I'd tread lightly.

[Grampie]

No, you must have a physical handicap for which a dog is required to assist you with and be properly trained to perform that service.

(ii) The crime-deterrent effects of an animal's presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this provision.

Further:
(3) An individual may be asked to remove a service animal from an area closed to pets if:
(i) The animal is out of control and the animal's handler does not take effective action to control it;
(ii) The animal is not housebroken; or
(iii) It is not readily apparent and the individual with a disability is unwilling or unable to articulate or demonstrate the work or task the animal has been trained to perform, consistent with paragraph (b)(1)(i) of this section.

cHECK OUR THIS WEB SITE.USDOGREGISTRY.ORG i BUT 99% OF THE TIME THIS WILL WORK

[Slo-go'en]

Could you please provide a link or cite for this?

My googling only turned up this as a PROPOSAL made in early 2014 for a CHANGE to the current law/regulation which IF APPROVED would apply only to certain NPS properties. And even if approved would IN NO WAY apply to areas outside these parks.

Without a definite cite and understanding of where and how this applies, I'd be careful with this information.

Look at the email I received from the GSMNP in post #41. This thread is specific to the Smoky mountains and this is what they said:

The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person's disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

[bemental]

OK. After reading the above post, and all the rest, I have come to the following conclusion. I want to thru-hike the AT and I want to bring my loving dog with me. Every day we spend time together. This together time makes me forget all my daily life hardships. The time spent with my dog puts me at ease.
The rules for a thru-hiker in the Smokey Mountains National Park are that "no pets are allowed." To not bring my loving dog through the Smokeys with me would be very hard emotionaly. I do not want to spend $200-$300 to have my dog boarded and transported around the park. What can I do to beat the system.
I go on line. Various web sites offer certification that my dog is a "personal comfort dog." I spend the $100.00 , get my certificate and a nice vest for my dog to wear and off I go to hike. I am now legitimate and I can bring my dog anywhere and disregard the rules.

10. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?

A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually.
Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises.
11. Q: Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is disruptive to my business?

A: There may be a few circumstances when a public accommodation is not required to accommodate a service animal--that is, when doing so would result in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business. Generally, this is not likely to occur in restaurants, hotels, retail stores, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities. But when it does, for example, when a dog barks during a movie, the animal can be excluded.


http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

[bemental]

In short Gramps, most PETS don't pass the preliminary 'sniff test'.

What most people don't realize, is that businesses have rights as well. For those of us that have actually trained our own dogs, there is a high level of personal awareness and liability that goes along with bringing our dogs out in public.

For all intents and purposes, they're not allowed to act as dogs when on duty. What I mean by that is they cannot solicit attention from anyone, they cannot smell items on tables (restaurants) or shelves (grocery and department stores), cannot pull on the leash, must stop when you stop, walk when you walk, cannot eat food off the ground, must sit or lie for long periods of time, may not whine, growl or bark, cannot show fear or aggression... the list goes on and on.

Most of the negatives above are conditions whereupon a business could legally ask your animal to leave the premises.

Anyone that thinks they can slap a vest on a dog and pretend it's a service animal will have another thing coming when anyone who actually *knows* about service animals encounters you.

[WingedMonkey]

For all intents and purposes, they're not allowed to act as dogs when on duty.

It really is that simple.

[Slo-go'en]

For all intents and purposes, they're not allowed to act as dogs when on duty.

And while on the trail they are effectively "on duty" 24/7 which is a lot to ask of any dog.

No doubt there will always be people (hikers) who are so selfish they will claim to have a service dog to get them into places where they don't belong, like the Smokes. Hopefully these people will be found out, expelled and fined heavily. Hopefully those with legitimate service dogs will understand that there are places they shouldn't take their dog, like along the AT in the Smokes, and voluntarily respect those reasons by not going there even if it is their right.

[Alligator]

And while on the trail they are effectively "on duty" 24/7 which is a lot to ask of any dog.

No doubt there will always be people (hikers) who are so selfish they will claim to have a service dog to get them into places where they don't belong, like the Smokes. Hopefully these people will be found out, expelled and fined heavily. Hopefully those with legitimate service dogs will understand that there are places they shouldn't take their dog, like along the AT in the Smokes, and voluntarily respect those reasons by not going there even if it is their right.

And I was hoping you had stopped with the discrimination. Hikers with disabilities have a right to have their service dogs in the Smokies.

[Mags]

Anyone that thinks they can slap a vest on a dog and pretend it's a service animal will have another thing coming when anyone who actually *knows* about service animals encounters you.

Sadly, real life says otherwise.

Enough that there has a been a lot of it in the news lately.

Note this link from a legitimate service dog website with news articles:
http://servicedogcentral.org/content...og-credentials

cannot eat food off the ground,

Remember, there was a business near bankruptcy because the owner of the restaurant ejected a patron who fed his service dog on the ground, in the restaurant and from his own plate no-less.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/08/2...n-service-dog/

"ireland said at the time that he didn’t really believe Jack was a service dog because Glaser allowed people to pet and feed it, unlike the service dogs he has seen with other customers."

Petitions, the threat of a lawsuit, an organized boycott. The man's business almost went under.

(Granted, did not help the diner owner was belligerent. And being belligerent to a veteran is never a good idea in 2015)

Then there's person who hiked the CDT with her dog under er, suspect circumstances with a fairly high degree of publicity:
http://dogblog.ruffwear.net/2014/01/...-divide-trail/

WHat I am trying to say is there's the law, and there's what actually happens: People (possibly) taking advantage of a loophole.

And in our lawsuit happy society, we tend to be VERY careful.

Kinda ticks me off for the people who have legitimate need.

[Wise Old Owl]

hmm a soft weigh in as I agree with above sentiment, as I work with rescues and now I work with handlers that are instrumental in Bed Bug Detection and these are $14k 6 month in training....

Folks.. I am not sure where you are going with this... folks lie cheat and steal... there are always going to be some slum lords of low ethics on the trail - just don;'t let it be you. They are the minority...

Here is your sign... What they are not telling you is the pig farted in close quarters then defalcated all over the cabin.. this was the best of 2013


http://video.foxnews.com/v/391501206...#sp=show-clips