Information vs. responsibility

[imscotty]

For example: in the event I were to be killed in such a situation is my estate, insurance provider, or my surviving heirs financially responsible?

To answer your question, I have never heard of a single instance where NH billed anyone for the rescue or recovery of someone who died. I suppose they figure the price paid was already high enough. If they ever have to haul out your body, I expect it will be a freebie.

[ScareBear]

^^^THIS. New Hampshire does a pretty damn good job pulling people off of mountains in every season, in every possible predicament and weather conditions, when required. If NH were to fund a full-time paid mountain rescue group, the people going out on rescues would likely be the same ones that do it now anyway, as they are the most qualified people around both from a technical and local knowledge basis. There aren't enough rescue events to justify maintaining a mountain rescue group on a full-time paid standby basis when you have pretty much the best people on call as volunteers anyway.

I suppose it boils down to why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free...at least in NH, SLC, etc...

[4eyedbuzzard]

To answer your question, I have never heard of a single instance where NH billed anyone for the rescue or recovery of someone who died. I suppose they figure the price paid was already high enough. If they ever have to haul out your body, I expect it will be a freebie.

I'm NOT a lawyer, but typically, yes, your estate is usually subject to virtually any and all expenses (including civil fines and criminal penalties) you incurred while alive. Non-hiking example: you are rushed to the hospital in an ambulance and later die. Your estate is going to get both an ambulance bill and medical bills. And if your body was carried off the mountain by S&R and you were deemed reckless, then yeah, a bill might well be coming. You can also often be held accountable financially for non-criminal expenses incurred (including civil fines) of your spouse and/or dependents (typically occurs with minors/children depending upon their age). Parents have gotten billed for S&R for their children. The laws regarding such stuff vary by states - community property vs common law when it comes to marriage, and sometimes even 16 year olds can be held personally responsible financially aside from their parents in some states like NH. There is a lot of discretion involved with law enforcement and courts. An S&R bill for a dead spouse probably isn't something most people would plan ahead for though. The odds of it happening are pretty slim.

[MuddyWaters]

I'm NOT a lawyer, but typically, yes, your estate is usually subject to virtually any and all expenses (including civil fines and criminal penalties) you incurred while alive. Non-hiking example: you are rushed to the hospital in an ambulance and later die. Your estate is going to get both an ambulance bill and medical bills. And if your body was carried off the mountain by S&R and you were deemed reckless, then yeah, a bill might well be coming. You can also often be held accountable financially for non-criminal expenses incurred (including civil fines) of your spouse and/or dependents (typically occurs with minors/children depending upon their age). Parents have gotten billed for S&R for their children. The laws regarding such stuff vary by states - community property vs common law when it comes to marriage, and sometimes even 16 year olds can be held personally responsible financially aside from their parents in some states like NH. There is a lot of discretion involved with law enforcement and courts. An S&R bill for a dead spouse probably isn't something most people would plan ahead for though. The odds of it happening are pretty slim.

My sister-in-law had a stroke and was medivac to a major Hospital and she died my brother received a bill for $500,000for the air ambulance he called them up and said I don't have $500,000 they said did the patient died he said yes they said okaywe will write it off bye.

Oops wasn't a stroke, ruptured aneurysm

[ScareBear]

Sorry about your sister-in-law, Muddy. In the rural areas around here, you can buy into a medevac coop that will reduce your fees dramatically. $65 bucks a year, unlimited flights, EMS can call them without prior physician consult...AirEvacLifeTeam...

[4eyedbuzzard]

My sister-in-law had a stroke and was medivac to a major Hospital and she died my brother received a bill for $500,000for the air ambulance he called them up and said I don't have $500,000 they said did the patient died he said yes they said okaywe will write it off bye.

Oops wasn't a stroke, ruptured aneurysm

Yeah, there's a LOT of discretion. And even sympathy. Plus there's no use in trying to collect on a bill that will never get paid. But the legal mechanisms for billing and collecting do exist and are sometimes used.

[MuddyWaters]

Sorry about your sister-in-law, Muddy. In the rural areas around here, you can buy into a medevac coop that will reduce your fees dramatically. $65 bucks a year, unlimited flights, EMS can call them without prior physician consult...AirEvacLifeTeam...

possibly medivac isnt right term. It was helicopter transport for several hundred miles from local hospital to a leading neurological hospital to try to save her.

[MuddyWaters]

Yeah, there's a LOT of discretion. And even sympathy. Plus there's no use in trying to collect on a bill that will never get paid. But the legal mechanisms for billing and collecting do exist and are sometimes used.

heres a tip

never probate a will until providers write off the unpaid bills

takes 2 years

you dont have to pay squat out of someones estate if you are careful and can avoid probating will

my father died owing over $ 1 million in medical.

Paid an elder care lawyer $10,000 for that bit of advice. You get it free.

Other tip..providers will send bill to heirs....you have no obligation to pay any bill whatesoever for a deceased person from your own money. They are unscrupulous and attempt to have unknowledgeable people pay them that arent legally liable.

[ScareBear]

possibly medivac isnt right term. It was helicopter transport for several hundred miles from local hospital to a leading neurological hospital to try to save her.

That is specifically included in the membership...hospital to hospital. That's how it's done in the sticks. The local volunteer EMS ground transports you to nearest hospital, unless you have to go right from the scene, things get worse at the rural clinic/hospital or they don't have the right surgeon to save life or limb, and poof. Medevac. Air Ambulance.

[pilgrimskywheel]

To answer your question, I have never heard of a single instance where NH billed anyone for the rescue or recovery of someone who died. I suppose they figure the price paid was already high enough. If they ever have to haul out your body, I expect it will be a freebie.

Thank you. It will no doubt also be the cause of wide spread celebration.

[trailmercury]

I believe in Colorado that if you purchase a hunting or fishing license and you need to be rescued via helicopter you will have no bill...do other states have this?

[MuddyWaters]

I believe in Colorado that if you purchase a hunting or fishing license and you need to be rescued via helicopter you will have no bill...do other states have this?

In most places you will not be billed for rescue. Rescue is by goverment agencies and local law enforcement and volunteers.

Air ambulance is another story. Private for profit business.

In rural areas like Sierra, people can buy air med insurance with individual companies based on where they hike or live, and you wont be charged by that company if they respond. In some areas where no private air med operates, such as grand canyon, government helicopters might evacuate you at no charge. If you are seriously injured, the best available will be summoned.

If you have good medical insurance it typically pays. IF its warranted. There is requirement that if its not an immediate life threatening emergency, the chopper drops you at nearest trailhead, and ground ambulance takes you. If you violate this...and it has happened ..they wont pay and you can bill billed tens of thousands of $.

Getting rescued might be free. Getting your life saved is not always.

People with bad or no insurance...have gotten seriously f'd and had to declare bankruptcy, owing $20,000-50,000.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/06/bu...bill.html?_r=0

[Mags]

I believe in Colorado that if you purchase a hunting or fishing license and you need to be rescued via helicopter you will have no bil

That's a commonly held belief that is incorrect.


This card put out by the state of Colorado, helps defray costs for the search and rescue organizations, the training of personnel and the purchasing of equipment for these volunteer-based agencies. Many of agencies that happen to perform many of the SARs also happen to be in counties that have a lower tax base.

The purchase of this card is essentially a charitable donation to help out the dedicated volunteers and the organizations.

What the card is NOT? It is NOT insurance. The SAR groups in Colorado will not charge for the search and rescue. What may be charged is any medical evacuation: ambulance, helicopters, etc. that are done by a third-party group.

Depending on the situation, the evac may not be charged for as well. A friend of mine suffered from altitude sickness on a backcountry hut trip a decade or so ago. He had to be evacuated.

The evac unit needed so many training hours, so the evac team did not charge my friend. The evac itself was able to be counted for the training hours this group needed.
I suspect it helped that my friend had to evacuated through no fault or negligence of his own!

So purchase a CORSAR card. Help out the Colorado SAR groups.

But please note, despite popular misconception, the CORSAR card is NOT an insurance card.

To quote the Colorado.gov website:
The CORSAR Card Is Not Insurance
The card is not insurance and does not reimburse individuals nor does it pay for medical transport. It reimburses sheriffs for eligible costs involved in the discharge of a SAR mission.

The CORSAR card is a good thing to purchase. The SAR groups always need funds. And your purchase of the CORSAR cards gives a hand to the many hardworking SAR groups that help to make Colorado a safe place.

[bgillomega]

This is a very sad event. However, the bottom line is it doesn't matter how much experience or proper gear you have. A solo hike in the white mountains in the winter or border seasons is foolish...period. Accidents happen and the weather can turn in an instant. Once you hit a certain level of hypothermia you cannot rescue yourself. Just don't do it.

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[rafe]

This is a very sad event. However, the bottom line is it doesn't matter how much experience or proper gear you have. A solo hike in the white mountains in the winter or border seasons is foolish...period. Accidents happen and the weather can turn in an instant. Once you hit a certain level of hypothermia you cannot rescue yourself. Just don't do it.

+1. Hiking in winter in the White Mtns. is a risky business. Going solo greatly increases the chances of a bad outcome if something goes wrong. But even if you have a partner or a group, all members of that group need to be vigilant and committed to looking after the other(s). It does no good if, say, two hikers are "partnering" a quarter mile apart, oblivious to one another.

[Engine]

+1. Hiking in winter in the White Mtns. is a risky business. Going solo greatly increases the chances of a bad outcome if something goes wrong. But even if you have a partner or a group, all members of that group need to be vigilant and committed to looking after the other(s). It does no good if, say, two hikers are "partnering" a quarter mile apart, oblivious to one another.

Good point. I recently read a journal entry regarding a winter hike in that area that floored me. It involved two hikers who were going to meet at the trailhead, but one was running late. The first arriving hiker (who wrote the journal entry) decied to head on to the campsite many miles up the trail and get camp set up, since he had the tent and cooking gear and poor weather was supposed to set in. He contacted the other hiker and advised him of his intentions before setting out.

Due to degrading weather conditions, the second hiker arrived a few hours later than expected and the journal indicated hiker #1 was "very concerned" about his friend, but had no cell service and decided the weather was too rough to leave camp for a search. Thankfully, it turned out okay, but when reading the narrative of this event, I couldn't help but think how utterly stupid some of the decisions were.

1. They chose to hike during a known winter weather event in an unforgiving area.

2. The were depending on shared gear for some important items.

3. They knowingly allowed themselves to be split up, before they even started.

4. They had no way to contact each other, or outside assistance, once they were in the backcountry.

All of the links for an accident chain were there, they just got lucky things didn't line up that way.

[Slo-go'en]

Okay, here's a recent example:

"Rescued hiker who ignored advice is likely to be billed" The Berlin daily Sun, Jan 7, 2016


A 17 year old Canadian apparently ignored advice given to him by both the AMC and the NH fish and game not to attempt a 35 miles, 4 day Presidential traverse, starting at Franconia Notch. Guess what? 2.6 miles in on the first night, he calls for rescue. He was wet, tired and couldn't set up his tent or operate his stove. Let see, that was last Thursday and I think that was a bad weather day.

Anyway, he had proper gear, but not the knowledge of how to use it. The cost of the rescue was $1300 for which he will likely be billed for.

[ScareBear]

And, it seems it was a good thing he didn't know how to set up his tent...probably saved his life. Seriously....

[nsherry61]

This is a very sad event. However, the bottom line is it doesn't matter how much experience or proper gear you have. A solo hike in the white mountains in the winter or border seasons is foolish...period. . .

I will take issue with that!

Please, do not take my informed choices about risk as foolish just because they are different than yours!

There are many things people, yourself included, do every day that are risky and done anyway (like driving), often without as much appreciation for the risk involved as an experienced winter traveler will have for his or her risks in choosing to go solo in the White Mountains in the winter. And I'm sorry, the White Mountains are NOT particularly dangerous as evidenced by the thousands of people that traipse around them all winter long and the relatively few that actually get in trouble and die.

Frankly, I prefer traveling in winter with a partner in many cases because I don't have to be quite as careful and I can go places and do things that require a partner to be reasonably safe. But give me a break, just traveling through the Whites in winter for an experience winter outdoors person is not especially risky unless you choose to go places or do things that are especially risky.

And, what Jack Holden did was NOT particularly risky. In his case, he made a fatal mistake, not unlike a person driving along and running a red light. Just because a driver gets killed because he or she didn't see a red light, doesn't make driving foolish does it?

[rafe]

And, what Jack Holden did was NOT particularly risky. In his case, he made a fatal mistake, not unlike a person driving along and running a red light. Just because a driver gets killed because he or she didn't see a red light, doesn't make driving foolish does it?

Driving isn't necessarily "foolish" but yes, it has inherent risks. Traffic accidents account for > 1% of US mortality and more than two million injuries per year. That is not insignificant.

In my opinion, Jack made more than one fatal mistake.

In any case, I'd still strongly recommend hiking with a partner in winter in the White Mountains.

For sure, I've not always followed my own advice on this matter, and yeah, I survived. I always try to find a partner for my winter hikes.