When will we beat Down?

[NimbleNavi]

How long do you think is going to take humans to come up with synthetic insulation with better warmth-to-weight than down,and possibly competitive in price also?
So far we have stuff like Aerogel,put it is in a form not very suitable for clothing,and bags....

[Tipi Walter]

High quality goose down works well enough with no need for simulation or high tech solutions. Except of course for the slaughter of geese to get the down. I use goose down products on all my winter trips and so of course I'm responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of geese. Strange compromise for a lifelong vegetarian.

[cmoulder]

Forever

Ain't gonna happen.

[Just Bill]

How long do you think is going to take humans to come up with synthetic insulation with better warmth-to-weight than down,and possibly competitive in price also?
So far we have stuff like Aerogel,put it is in a form not very suitable for clothing,and bags....

Quantify "beat"...

Weight, pack size, cost, performance, temp rating, others?

In a relatively narrow window (summer gear, quilt) I'd make a decent argument I can "beat" down already.

[NimbleNavi]

Forever

Ain't gonna happen.

Why npt?Not that it is easy,but humans have beaten nature before.

[Greenlight]

I didn't realize it was a contest. The fabric holding the down in place in your quilt, or jacket, or bag, is more than likely synthetic. The hydrophobic treatment that the feathers received was a combo of natural and synthetic compounds. Nature has already perfected the feather. I see no reason to fight that. I'd rather just use it.

However, to entertain your thought, might I point you to the principles of permaculture. David Holmgren is doing more with it outside of it's original framework. "Designing from patterns to details" has already given us super-grippy synthetic fabrics based on the skin surface patterns of gecko toes. So, now they're good for more than selling insurance.

Some scientist somewhere will probably someday design synthetic feathers that outfeather real feathers.

Why npt?Not that it is easy,but humans have beaten nature before.

[saltysack]

Why npt?Not that it is easy,but humans have beaten nature before.

That is exactly the exact problem with society. Learn to live with nature not against it! If it ain't broke don't fix it. Nothing wrong with down it's an organic natural product.


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[NimbleNavi]

I have nothing against down!I LOVE it!
I was just asking,if you think synthetic will overcome it into the (near or far) future.In all practical aspects(weight,compressability,durability,etc...)

[AfterParty]

This will be like science creating a new element or something it may happen synthetics have came along ways.

[Ktaadn]

High quality goose down works well enough with no need for simulation or high tech solutions. Except of course for the slaughter of geese to get the down. I use goose down products on all my winter trips and so of course I'm responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of geese. Strange compromise for a lifelong vegetarian.

Isn't the down the byproduct of the food industry? Similar to leather?

[Ktaadn]

I would assume that some sort of nanotube like structure will be better than down in the future.

Wool is still pretty hard to beat as well. It is a favorite material for socks for most people as well as other garments.

[Just Bill]

I have nothing against down!I LOVE it!
I was just asking,if you think synthetic will overcome it into the (near or far) future.In all practical aspects(weight,compressability,durability,etc...)

Yar, this took some odd turns thus far.

Pound for pound... nope not yet.
Primaloft Gold is the closest one I know of (commercially available/field tested and not just a lab fantasy in development).
The most direct comparison would be in a product like "Thermoball" which is made by Primaloft for The North Face and is a loose fill version of Primaloft Gold
It is roughly equal to 600 fill power down and works the same way.

So to an extent...
If you want the current "state of the race" the very best synthetic material is at 600 Fill power... which does beat some down blends and has better water resistance than even treated down does.
However with treated downs and better sorting/popularity we are seeing 1000 Fill power downs now so by that metric synthetic is not even close.

Where synthetic can outperform down is when the finished goods are looked at.
When Synthetic is in batt form (like PLG or Climbashield APEX) in continuous or short staple fills it is a more or less stable piece of material.
Down (or puffball) is a loose fill; so it requires a certain shell construction to contain it. Synthetic would also need a shell material so the actual outer layer, zippers, pockets, parts pieces etc on two exact same items (like a 50* sleeping quilt) would all be equal.

What is not equal is the baffles and additional material required to stabilize the loose fill within the shell. This material has a weight which does add up.

So if I sew two identical quilts at 45* or so quilts; one in PLG synthetic and one in down (let's say 850 fill). The reason I say 45* is that it is about the break point- down is better
Let's say you don't care about all the details... and they are all finished and side by side.
The synthetic will be cheaper.
The pack size will be similar if not equal.
The weight will be similar if not equal.

Durability is debatable- though should be similar for the first 3-5 years and then down will have an edge over the life of the bag. I don't think anyone has owned one of these types of synthetic insulation long enough to really say. Apex breaks down relatively quick (1-3 years for some initial performance losses) but PLG may last longer based upon use in clothing/garments that seem to hold up well. Well Cared for Down can in theory last "forever" but that claim is debatable too. If you use your bag 10 days a year for 15 years... you haven't even put an average thru hike on it... so I do think that some of the longevity claims from "average" users could be looked at a bit skeptically.
So overall... you're probably still looking at good performance from both in the 150-250 night range, which is pretty decent.

On the flipside, a poorly cared for down bag will not even last a season. If you get any mold or mildew going it can be difficult if not impossible to correct.

Synthetics only big edge is ease of use and lack of care. So long as you don't over compress them... they can get damp and stay damp and/or take more abuse overall.
So when you are talking warm temps, frequent use, humid conditions, and a bit of "not babying" overall I think a synthetic has the edge for summertime in lower elevation trips.

Past about 35* (unless you're allergic to down) it's hard to even debate the topic unless cost is the only factor. Synthetic can easily be half the cost at about 20ish degrees... but it could be double the weight and size too.
PLG in about 25* is about as close as you get and that's about 25% (heavier, cheaper, bulkier) off an 850 fill down.

[Dogwood]

JB saves a lot of others tippy tapping away.

Down already can be beat depending on how one defines "beat."

[Gambit McCrae]

Syl is to Down, as Cuben is to.....?

OR if we cant beat It then..

Syl is to synthetic, as Cuben is to Down

[cmoulder]

JB saves a lot of others tippy tapping away.

Down already can be beat depending on how one defines "beat."

This is why I don't waste too much time tippy-tapping on this topic.

I'm not "down" on synthetics, not at all. I have an EE Prodigy (40°F rated, 17.7 oz) made with Climashield Apex, and I've used it down to to that temp and then some.

There are Wet-n-Cool conditions where synthetics shine; I've used the Prodigy a few times in situations where down would've been a trip-ending disaster. There's something to be said for a quilt than can be wrung out and still offer fairly good warmth.

[Dogwood]

Folks do like to see things back or white, on or off as if everything is a duality. What a way to limit our minds and options? We can get so caught up narrowly perceiving the world as this pertains to everything...true or false, it's a us verse them, synthetic verse natural fiber, or synthetic verse down mindsets with resulting choosing of sides...polarization. How about this?

http://www.primaloft.com/insulation

http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...irt/36352.html

[rafe]

Why npt?Not that it is easy,but humans have beaten nature before.

Yes and no. I think, at our best, we mimic nature and occasionally exceed it in certain ways.

I have five down bags, the oldest is from 1973. All are still usable. All have had 10-20 years of active service.

Knock wood, I've never had to sleep in a wet down bag. Really not that hard to keep it dry, especially on the trail when it's highly compressed.

[colorado_rob]

I'm guessing yes, we will, because we're close already. But mine is only a guess.

There are plenty of precedents for natural materials still holding out over many decades or even centuries; wood, for example. It will come down (!) to economics... is our little world of down users big enough to prompt a material manufacturer to spend the $$$ to develop this product? And how much better can it really be? A really high quality down sleeping bag is maybe half/half down vs. shell materials, weight wise. Shell material weights have dropped a ton over the last couple decades, how much weight can be possibly dropped with a man made down substitute? Another ounce or two out of a 1.5-2 pound bag seems the most we could hope for. And how to possibly beat the performance, meaning insulating value per inch? This is pretty much physically impossible. Maybe a material that's even more water resistant than treated down. We'll see.

[Hikes in Rain]

Isn't the down the byproduct of the food industry? Similar to leather?

I think it might be the other way around. I have several down articles, but have never eaten goose. Not sure I've even seen it in the store. Admittedly, haven't really looked, though.

[AfterParty]

They eat a lot of birds in other parts of the world