Proposed pipe line

[Greenlight]

Now that would help make those business and industries be much more competitive. Relocate their factories, build new housing for the employees out on the great plains of Kansas and Texas.

Yet they would still need fossil fuel generated sources for periods of low wind and/or more than likely at night. Maybe split the difference and move half way.

Thankfully, the EPA/DOE will now be run by people who are not wed to an ideology and controlled by lobbying groups. We will become an energy producer with lower cost attracting investments from around the world.

Hey yeah. Then maybe we can bump up our percentage of the worlds energy that we consume, from 1/4 to 1/3. Even though we're only, like, you know… 5% of the worlds population


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[colorado_rob]

It has more to do with resistance. Any size wire will have resistance and how much loss the wire has is related to the amount of current. By using a very high voltage, the I/R losses are held to a minimum because the higher the voltage, the lower the current for a given amount of power.

Yeah, like I said, apparently not very well: "To keep wires relatively thin, the voltage has to be very high, meaning huge line-ground potential". So, the question is: why so much more expensive for in-ground? Trenching is cheap. The theory I tried to state was because of the insulation involved, to reduce the "leakage" into the ground. Not a problem with suspended wires, are they even insulated along the actual wire? The huge voltages involved would leak right through conventional insulation in ground, unless it was very thick, I would think. Unless our insulating technology improves. Maybe we're at the limits of physics for reasonable cost materials, I'm just curious.

By the way, per capita consumption in the USA has been dropping since 2007, down 6.4%. Small moves, but in the right direction. I wonder what part the chicken-little and curmudgeon types that have made their brilliant contributions to this thread have done for this cause?

[rafe]

Yeah, like I said, apparently not very well: "To keep wires relatively thin, the voltage has to be very high, meaning huge line-ground potential". So, the question is: why so much more expensive for in-ground? Trenching is cheap. The theory I tried to state was because of the insulation involved, to reduce the "leakage" into the ground. Not a problem with suspended wires, are they even insulated along the actual wire? The huge voltages involved would leak right through conventional insulation in ground, unless it was very thick, I would think. Unless our insulating technology improves. Maybe we're at the limits of physics for reasonable cost materials, I'm just curious.

High tension lines need to be far above ground because of parasitic capacitance of each line to each other line, and to ground. If the voltage/current were not alternating, this would not be an issue, but it is. Buried lines (used in cities and suburbs) are constrained to much lower voltage ranges. And yes, per foot buried lines are much more expensive because they need to be heavily insulated and rated for much higher current.

[BillyGr]

I don't think they have any real problem with burring HV transmission lines, it's just much more expensive.

"The estimated cost for constructing underground transmission lines ranges from 4 to 14 times more expensive than overhead lines of the same voltage and same distance. A typical new 69 kV overhead single-circuit transmission line costs approximately $285,000 per mile as opposed to $1.5 million per mile for a new 69 kV underground line (without the terminals). A new 138 kV overhead line costs approximately $390,000 per mile as opposed to $2 million per mile for underground (without the terminals)." (quoted from http://www.elp.com/articles/powergri...mparison-.html )

In addition, repair costs are much higher and outage time much longer when the buried transmission line fail.

The only question is would those higher costs and potential longer repair times be at all offset (perhaps not everywhere, but particularly in areas that get a lot of winter type weather) by less repairs/outages from weather?

While those larger transmission lines probably don't get impacted quite as often, one thinks of things like a couple of the larger ice storms that have hit NY State in the last 20 years and how much (including in some places those huge metal towers that carry these lines) had to be rebuilt after the storms.

[Hosh]

Hey yeah. Then maybe we can bump up our percentage of the worlds energy that we consume, from 1/4 to 1/3. Even though we're only, like, you know… 5% of the worlds population


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

These statistics are not relevant. US population growth is relatively flat if you net out immigration. Very flat if you net out illegal immigration. Fossil fuels are the backbone of a competitive, global economy. Better to have it produced in the US under tight environmental controls than other nations that allow all kinds of pollution.

Seen any pictures of Beijing's fog lately?

[Greenlight]

These statistics are not relevant. US population growth is relatively flat if you net out immigration. Very flat if you net out illegal immigration. Fossil fuels are the backbone of a competitive, global economy. Better to have it produced in the US under tight environmental controls than other nations that allow all kinds of pollution.

Seen any pictures of Beijing's fog lately?

It is always relevant if you are consuming 500% of your fare share of the world's finite resources to fuel an economy of wants instead of needs. But I see your point about regulation.

Year over year growth is unsustainable.

No matter what business model you choose, finite natural resources are always going to eventually be depleted. We are wasting valuable time f*%king with oil and coal when we should be bringing renewable wnergy to the forefront for the whole world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[colorado_rob]

It is always relevant if you are consuming 500% of your fare share of the world's finite resources to fuel an economy of wants instead of needs. But I see your point about regulation.

Year over year growth is unsustainable.

No matter what business model you choose, finite natural resources are always going to eventually be depleted. We are wasting valuable time f*%king with oil and coal when we should be bringing renewable wnergy to the forefront for the whole world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

And your contribution to this already happening cause, besides your incessant crying is what again?

[Greenlight]

And your contribution to this already happening cause, besides your incessant crying is what again?

Incessant crying is an inaccurate description. When you are born into a system, it takes time to wake up, become aware, and change. If you even want to change. Maybe I'm at the awareness stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[peakbagger]

The only question is would those higher costs and potential longer repair times be at all offset (perhaps not everywhere, but particularly in areas that get a lot of winter type weather) by less repairs/outages from weather?

While those larger transmission lines probably don't get impacted quite as often, one thinks of things like a couple of the larger ice storms that have hit NY State in the last 20 years and how much (including in some places those huge metal towers that carry these lines) had to be rebuilt after the storms.

During the ice storm of 1998, much of Quebec Province lost their backbone high voltage grid as the utility used strictly overhead transmissions lines. NH got lucky as the brunt of the ice storm missing the local transmission grid but the local distribution grids took it real hard and in some towns the utilities pretty well had to start from scratch. A few years later a HVDC overhead transmission line from Quebec to southern New England got knocked out for couple of days by a couple of folks with a hunting rifle. A underground DC line located adjacent to an existing road is going to be lot more robust than a elevated transmission line run willy nilly through the woods. The regional utility has very little running gear available to access elevated transmission lines when there is significant snow pack on the ground. The utility frequently "forgets" to factor in winter conditions with a snow pack on a remote right of way when discussing the relative ease of repairs between underground cables and overhead cables.

[Venchka]

I guess Greenlight missed the announcement by the Apache Corporation of finding a 20 Billion barrel oil and gas field in west Texas.
That's just the largest find so far this century. No doubt there will be more in the future.
But hey. We're running out of hydrocarbons. Right.
By all means, let's ship exploration and production to Nigeria, Venezuela, China, etc.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.fool....?client=safari
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[swjohnsey]

It is always relevant if you are consuming 500% of your fare share of the world's finite resources to fuel an economy of wants instead of needs. But I see your point about regulation.

Year over year growth is unsustainable.

No matter what business model you choose, finite natural resources are always going to eventually be depleted. We are wasting valuable time f*%king with oil and coal when we should be bringing renewable wnergy to the forefront for the whole world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Sometimes I can sleep nights worrying that I might be using some Somalian's electricity.

[Greenlight]

I guess Greenlight missed the announcement by the Apache Corporation of finding a 20 Billion barrel oil and gas field in west Texas.
That's just the largest find so far this century. No doubt there will be more in the future.
But hey. We're running out of hydrocarbons. Right.
By all means, let's ship exploration and production to Nigeria, Venezuela, China, etc.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.fool....?client=safari
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Since there is a finite amount, yes. We are running out of carbon-based resources. Treating a finite resource as unlimited capital isn't smart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[colorado_rob]

Incessant crying is an inaccurate description. When you are born into a system, it takes time to wake up, become aware, and change. If you even want to change. Maybe I'm at the awareness stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You make a good point, and my words were harsh, please forgive.

[Alligator]

When folks can keep the discussion on this​ ​proposed pipeline (not electrical transmission and fracking) and on the state it is proposed for (not unrelated states) and can keep the unrelated politics out of the thread, we can reopen this topic.