Need a winter sleeping bag or convert summer bag

[Rmcpeak]

I think I'll take the torso pad --probably use it inside my bag-- AND the Costco quilt. There's 2 more pounds! oh well!! better warm than cold. thanks for your input... I'd sorta forgot about the ccf pad until I read this thread.


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[peterboysen]

I sense a future buy two get one (pad strap) free promotion, lol.

Ha, yeah, I think we can make that happen. I should see if our site will let me set that up as a discount rule.

One thing/thought- It'd be nice to see a sizing guideline for folks if you guys do promote this... Although in quilts the only real pinch point is the footbox I suppose. But it'd be handy to know that a regular paired with a wide or xwide respectively to avoid compression.

This point is actually a little more flexible than most people realize. When I layer, for example, both of my quilts are Reg width. I'm about 180lbs (and 6'2"), side sleeper, and not really at the limit of that width, so using a Reg width for both doesn't really cause any compression since the inner quilt just fluffs up to fill whatever space it can. However, if I were a bit larger, say 220lbs, I'd be pushing the width of a Regular, so the outer quilt would have to be at least a wide to avoid compressing the inner quilt. It's kind of a cludgy concept to explain though, which is why I avoided writing it out on the website. Sizing is somewhat subjective even for a single quilt, and a lot of folks who are 180lbs think the Reg is too slim, and others think it's huge, so I try to avoid promising anything too specific where width is concerned.

[Just Bill]

Here ya go- Back vs.Side sleeper- quilt.pdf

Sleep position over weight in my experience.
Stolen roughly from Ray Jardine, so feel free to steal it too, lol.

Roughly my size (5'10" 220)- on a 26" wide pad.
On my back- I'm 10" thick at my chest... if i cranked the pad straps tight and all was perfect- 36"
On my side- I'm 18" across, but my shoulder is about 5" wide.
Side 1- an ellipse describes a bit bigger than reality
Side 2- Straight lines describe a bit unrealistic shape too.
Actual measurement using a tailor's tape loose draped method leaves you in between the two at around 47"

A little fluff is suggested, but I always found this illustration a better way to help folks size a quilt.


On the footbox thingy... My brain is fixed on synthetic for both layers. But your point about the down finding it's own way and still doing it's job makes perfect sense. So does using the synthetic outside your down to avoid body vapor build up in your down piece. Again- nice work.

[Venchka]

My thoughts on layering quilts or bag & quilt.
I would place the lower temp rating quilt next to me and close the footbox on the inner quilt. The higher rated quilt would be opened flat and draped over the first quilt.
For a bag-quilt combination, which is what I would use as I have two good lower temperature bags (0 & 20 degrees), if I buy a summer quilt I would open it flat and drape it over the bag. The quilt inside the bag is a No Go!
Does anyone with more experience than I have any problem with these schemes?

Wayne

[George]

Get a full length pad. Winter is not the time to be weight-averse.

I would certainly differ from this attitude - winter is the time when packs are heaviest, so to me the motivation for the most efficient system is highest - also the realized weight savings can far exceed that of a summer set up (easier to save 5lbs in the winter than summer)

some of my winter gear strategy:
down bag tested by you at temp as low as expected to occur
torso length pad with backpack under the feet
down parka with zip off sleeves that go over the feet at night
synthetic insulated pants (more likely to get wet)
no fleece ( not wight efficient)

[MuddyWaters]

My thoughts on layering quilts or bag & quilt.
I would place the lower temp rating quilt next to me and close the footbox on the inner quilt. The higher rated quilt would be opened flat and draped over the first quilt.
For a bag-quilt combination, which is what I would use as I have two good lower temperature bags (0 & 20 degrees), if I buy a summer quilt I would open it flat and drape it over the bag. The quilt inside the bag is a No Go!
Does anyone with more experience than I have any problem with these schemes?

Wayne

I stick footbox in footbox because feet get cold first on me.Roomiest one as the outer.

[Venchka]

Far enough. A good option. I'll remember that. Thank you.

Wayne


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[Rmcpeak]

Follow up: I used a 20 degree synth bag with an insulated inflatable under it and a ccf torso pad and Costco down quilt INSIDE the bag and stayed toasty on a 24 degree night sleeping on an exposed ground level stone porch of a locked PACT cabin. I slept with all clothes including extra heavy socks over hiking socks and Ul down jacket. the system seemed to work well as there is room in bag for down to loft. That quilt was very nice to have for the small amount of time I spent around camp eating, etc.


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[Franco]

I have seen those Costco quilt discussed on another forum.
They look to me ideal for doing exactly what you did , sort of a down liner for a synthetic bag.

[Rmcpeak]

I have seen those Costco quilt discussed on another forum.
They look to me ideal for doing exactly what you did , sort of a down liner for a synthetic bag.

worked like a charm as liner and as a wrap around lower body in camp -- my tights were great on the move but no wind blockage while stopped. I'm thinking of getting another Costco quilt and having neighborhood seamstress sew some shock chord into it and then use as warm weather quilt for petite fiancée hiking partner.


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[Venchka]

Follow up: I used a 20 degree synth bag with an insulated inflatable under it and a ccf torso pad and Costco down quilt INSIDE the bag and stayed toasty on a 24 degree night sleeping on an exposed ground level stone porch of a locked PACT cabin. I slept with all clothes including extra heavy socks over hiking socks and Ul down jacket. the system seemed to work well as there is room in bag for down to loft. That quilt was very nice to have for the small amount of time I spent around camp eating, etc.


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An example of warm/cold sleepers, bag ratings and environment:
Saturday before Thanksgiving.
Clear sky. Wind calm.
Wind proof single wall 4 season solo tent on damp sandy soil. Approximately 24 hours after hard rain.
Xtherm large mattress.
WM Alpinlite 20 F down bag.
Me, old and skinny, wearing LL Bean midweight merino wool bottoms and zip-T top, REI light wool socks and a very light fleece bike helmet liner. No gloves. Not sure I needed any of the clothes. Bag hood and collar loose.
Starting temp: 34 F @ 9:30 pm.
Ending temp: 26 F @ 6:30 am.
Never cold. Never woke up until the sun woke me up.
Total gear weight (excluding clothes worn): 7 pounds 5 ounces. Estimated weight of clothes: 1 - 1 1/4 pounds.
I would love to know the weight of everything in the post I quoted.
Bottom line: The Alpinlite and Xtherm are conservatively rated.

Wayne


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[Rmcpeak]

I would love to know the weight of everything in the post I quoted.

If I had an Alpinelite I probably would not have carried the extra quilt and pad. Maybe next year!

Big Agnes Savery 20 Long (synth top-bag with pad sleeve): 51.8 oz
Big Agnes AirCore insulated long mummy pad: 23.8 oz
Ridgerest torso: 8.6 oz
Costco down quilt: 16 oz
Total: 91.6 oz (6.26 lbs).

I think the BA Savery is "comfortable" at 30 degrees. I would have been chilly without the extras at 24 degrees. Slept in ALL clothes (base t shirt, mid layer, down jacket, rain jacket, insulated running tights, running shorts, mittens, hat, 2 pairs hiking socks with heavy smartwool over them. I put my tyvek perpendicular over my lower body to stop wind too. Don't think it did much.

Again, I put the CCF pad INSIDE my bag which I think was a very good idea (no sliding off it, etc), as well as the quilt inside. Not sure why this approach seems to get strong objections. I feel like it worked well. Of course, there was room in my bag for the quilt to loft, although not much room needed.

Am I missing something? Would this system backfire in colder temps somehow?

Complete gear list for this hike here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Venchka]

You may be in for a rude surprise when you encounter cold weather. 24 F degrees isn't cold. It was 26 F in East Texas weekend before last. Elevation maybe 900 feet.
For your next experiment, start with the quilt on top of your bag. Give it room to loft and keep you warm. I tried a down liner inside a small mummy bag. It didn't work well because I smashed the down to nothing. If it doesn't work for you, you can always put the quilt inside. You must be a text book example of a cold sleeper.
The dirt ground is warmer than a rock porch. A good wind proof tent is worth it's weight in gold. However, there was no wind in my experiment.
The weight of everything you were wearing is greater than the weight of my bag. I'm only 5'-8". The Alpinlite is a Long, sized for folks up to 6'-6". I have read numerous posts here and elsewhere from folks who bought a long bag when they needed a regular and were looking to butcher the long bag to reduce the size. I say, "Bah! Humbug!" The long works for me. I'm also a sucker for a deal.
For an old, clueless Geezer, I think I put together a decent sleeping arrangement. I didn't pay full retail either. I also have the Antelope Dry Loft for back up if/when I can get out in the mountains at altitude and cold weather.
Good luck with your hike!

Wayne

ps: I just looked up your bag. Yikes! That thing is bigger than the Alpinlite which I think is really roomy. Can you fit the air pad & Ridgerest in the pad sleeve of the bag?

[Rmcpeak]

Can you fit the air pad & Ridgerest in the pad sleeve of the bag?

Yeah, I know 24 degrees isn't "cold" but it is at the limits of my gear set, so in that regard it was cold. I don't think I can fit the RR inside the pad sleeve of the BA but I will give it a try. On this trip, I chose the porch because I thought I could stay warm and also have the enjoyment of the starry sky above.

I will for sure conduct some back yard COLD experiments this winter. Would like to see how low I can go with what I currently own. Will try the quilt over the bag the problem with that is securing the quilt. Maybe safety pins to the bottom of the bag, but then I'm doing fine motor stuff with bare hands in the cold. I learned on last hike that I don't want to have to do anything with my bare hands that I don't absolutely have to if it is sub freezing.

I'm 6'4 220 so I only consider "long" bags/quilts.

I've never done any actual winter camping, only early/late season stuff down into the 20s.

I'm lusting for an Alpinelite -- I think it needs to be on my thru-hike gear list (2023 when I'm 50).

[egilbe]

you should be able to withstand a several minutes with barehands in the 20's if you are remaining active. You can always try some cheap polar fleece gloves, or blove liners with the finger tips cut off.

It sounds like you want a bivy sack to keep everything together, sleeping pads, bag and quilt.

[Rmcpeak]

you should be able to withstand a several minutes with barehands in the 20's if you are remaining active. You can always try some cheap polar fleece gloves, or blove liners with the finger tips cut off.

It sounds like you want a bivy sack to keep everything together, sleeping pads, bag and quilt.

Bivy sack is an interesting idea... I use convertible mittens -- recent hike reminded me that cold makes little things difficult. That's all.

[Venchka]

Another variable in the keeping warm equation: Sufficient time in cold weather for your internal thermostat to switch to cold mode. This a real phenomenon that I have experienced while working overseas. I lived in New Orleans. Always warm to brutally hot. I commuted through northern Europe, Brussels or Zurich and Budapest. Worked in west Africa (5 degrees south) always warm or Kazakhstan, +115 to -34 depending on the season. Transiting Europe between N.O. and Africa I was always cold no matter what season. Kazakhstan played havoc with my internal thermostat. Hot-Cold-Hot or Cold-Hot-Cold. After a few days in the cold, I could be comfortable with fewer clothes.
Start saving for a Western Mountaineering. An investment that will pay dividends for decades. I own two. The cost only hurt for a little while. The benefits last a long long time.
Good luck.

Wayne

[Rmcpeak]

Start saving for a Western Mountaineering. An investment that will pay dividends for decades. I own two. The cost only hurt for a little while. The benefits last a long long time.

Do you recommend the Alpinelite (20 deg) or warmer? I don't see myself doing a lot of deep winter stuff, just late/early 3 season stuff. I have an EE 40 degree quilt for warmer months. What pad do you like to go with the WM bag?

[swisscross]

Another variable in the keeping warm equation: Sufficient time in cold weather for your internal thermostat to switch to cold mode. This a real phenomenon that I have experienced while working overseas. I lived in New Orleans. Always warm to brutally hot. I commuted through northern Europe, Brussels or Zurich and Budapest. Worked in west Africa (5 degrees south) always warm or Kazakhstan, +115 to -34 depending on the season. Transiting Europe between N.O. and Africa I was always cold no matter what season. Kazakhstan played havoc with my internal thermostat. Hot-Cold-Hot or Cold-Hot-Cold. After a few days in the cold, I could be comfortable with fewer clothes.
Start saving for a Western Mountaineering. An investment that will pay dividends for decades. I own two. The cost only hurt for a little while. The benefits last a long long time.
Good luck.

Wayne

Have not thought much about this in a while but when I first moved to Vermont from Alabama I froze my tail off.
After the first winter I went outside at 32 degrees with shorts on and was quite warm.

[Venchka]

Do you recommend the Alpinelite (20 deg) or warmer? I don't see myself doing a lot of deep winter stuff, just late/early 3 season stuff. I have an EE 40 degree quilt for warmer months. What pad do you like to go with the WM bag?

I own a WM Antelope Dry Loft and the Alpinlite. I bought the Antelope first. I liked it so much that when I went shopping for a new bag (I gave my REI bag from the 1970s to my granddaughter) I went to the local dealer in Houston and tried on the Ultralite (too narrow-just like the REI bag) and the Alpinlite. I bought an Alpinlite Long which is wider than the Antelope, but I got used to the extra width in a hurry. The extra length is a none issue for me at 5'-8". I could not be more pleased. One of these nights I'll get to try it out below 20 degrees. I'll report back then. In Europe the Alpinlite & Ultralite earned an EN rating of 16 degrees. I'm impressed that WM didn't immediately change the bags to 15 degree bags. That speaks volumes to me about the integrity of company. Another small detail about the WM bags: The loft is measured and the lowest point-about where your shins are. The loft increases both ways towards your chest and feet. I dare anyone to snag their zippers. It doesn't happen.
I also pondered the 25 degree WM Sycamore. It was a tough choice.

I'm pondering a 40 degree quilt as well. Used alone in warm weather or over one of my sleeping bags in really cold weather.

I've said on several occasions here at WB that I am totally sold on the Xtherm Large. I sleep as well on it as I do on my real bed. I put it to a 2 month continuous test on the floor of my apartment and one night in the backyard below freezing. It is a winner!

Wayne