Alcohol stove efficiencies, designs and boil times.

[Size12]

Does anyone know if there is a full video or set of instructions for constructing the eCHS? I looked at tekoba's channel but as far as Im aware none of the videos show the build process end to end for the eCHS and Instructions would have to be pieced together from multiple videos? Or am I missing something?

Also, Birdbrain, Im honoured that you jumped in on this thread =). Was doing some more research this morning and came across some of your work. Very interesting.

eCHS certainly looks promising in terms of being able to balance boil speed and fuel consumption.

Im aware of all the other factors in play, but I want to concentrate on the burner first, test that in ideal conditions, then improve the other parts of my system (Eg building a cone etc).

Thanks very much

[Odd Man Out]

I had to look that up. Wow! That looks beautiful. I cannot imagine what that would be like in person. Forget stoves and enjoy that marvel.

The sun is now rising over the Bosphorus. Great view from hotel room balcony. Hotel gave free upgrade to suite when original room had problem. Can't sleep more due to jet lag. Surfing net while wife sleeps in. Will go to the spice market this morning. I wonder how Iranian saffron would taste in a Knorrs side? Will baklava last as long as cheese?

[Odd Man Out]

20150427_064124.jpga room with a view

[Odd Man Out]

20150427_064225.jpgand the mosque

[Size12]

Im jealous of your travels there. Looks stunning!

[BirdBrain]

Does anyone know if there is a full video or set of instructions for constructing the eCHS? I looked at tekoba's channel but as far as Im aware none of the videos show the build process end to end for the eCHS and Instructions would have to be pieced together from multiple videos? Or am I missing something?

Also, Birdbrain, Im honoured that you jumped in on this thread =). Was doing some more research this morning and came across some of your work. Very interesting.

eCHS certainly looks promising in terms of being able to balance boil speed and fuel consumption.

Im aware of all the other factors in play, but I want to concentrate on the burner first, test that in ideal conditions, then improve the other parts of my system (Eg building a cone etc).

Thanks very much

You have to glean tips from many videos. Honestly, I don't do any step exactly like TetKOBA (except for the circle cutter). Through trial and error, you will find what works best for you. This construction is a labor of love. If you don't love doing this sort of thing, build a supercat or tea light stove. Don't get me wrong. Your 1st attempt will likely perform better than the 2 aforementioned stoves. However, it will take many tries to get one right. I cannot tell you how many I have built. I have 3 that I am truly pleased with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTp5zTOYPHQ

That is how. Use a v8 can. Better material. The jets are critical. Here is a video that explains a good way to get them right. Start at 2:20. Notice who he credits with this design

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjeyT5wlQms

I make mine a bit different. I slant my creases and make a hoop out of the bottom tabs.

One other note the paint is buffed off easier if done before opening the can. These videos may help as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BepwaJrYpcM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53aonESDlGE

[Size12]

Thanks. Ill start having a go. Just need to find cans that are the right shape. The narrow ones like the redbull cans are a pain to find. I saw a picture of your angled design. Any difference in performance between that and vertical creases? Id be guessing there would be or you wouldnt do it?

It would be an interesting experiment, so Im willing to put more effort into the construction for a more functional piece of gear.

[BirdBrain]

Thanks. Ill start having a go. Just need to find cans that are the right shape. The narrow ones like the redbull cans are a pain to find. I saw a picture of your angled design. Any difference in performance between that and vertical creases? Id be guessing there would be or you wouldnt do it?

It would be an interesting experiment, so Im willing to put more effort into the construction for a more functional piece of gear.

The jets are the most critical and hardest to get right. I try to drill the correct angle through the entire process. If you run a tiny pilot and then drill the final size at the proper angle, the jets will not be perfect. Proper jets produce a flame pattern with no turbulence. Angled creases help with turbulence and provide faster wicking. If your stove is in perfect balance, you will have a smooth flame pattern, no gas bubbling from excess pressure, and minimal thermal feedback. In the big picture, these miniscule nuances amount to a ml difference in performance if the jets are right. I just love trying for perfection. I have 3 perfect stoves. I light them every so often just to watch them burn.

Any of the small v8 cans will work as well.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I have 3 perfect stoves. I light them every so often just to watch them burn.

Okay. That is pretty amusing. And revealing. But mostly just amusing. So many obsessions, so little time . . .

[BirdBrain]

Okay. That is pretty amusing. And revealing. But mostly just amusing. So many obsessions, so little time . . .

Glad it made you smile. The 1st step in fixing an issue is to admit you have one. Then if you fail at fixing the issue, learn to laugh at it. Everyone else is laughing already. No sense in missing out on the fun.

[karldied]

A couple years ago I researched and built a couple alcohol stoves. Here are my observations and experiences.

1. A windscreen is essential, as kevperro expressed. Alcohol stoves typically have lower heat output as compared to a white gas or canister stoves, and thus are proportionally more affected by wind and cold. The Caldera Cone system looks very good. Like Old Man Out, my windscreen is a simple aluminum setup.

2. Engineering wise, as BirdBrain discussed, if a given alcohol stove has higher output, it is likely to have a broader heat pattern, and score lower on “efficiency” tests than slower-burning alcohol stoves, and at the same time be less subject to losses from wind. But, these ‘tests’ don’t address the real thing you’re looking for:

3. Usability out in the backcountry is critical; in warm, cold, windy, and high altitude environments. A pressurized alcohol stove, like the old heat-pressurized Svea 123R stoves, can perform much better across the spectrum of these conditions than a non-pressurized alcohol stove. However, design matters; you don’t want 6” jets like Slo-go'en’s turned out having.

4. I have had excellent success with the Penny 2.0. Any coin or circular object that has a smooth outer rim to seal on the Coke can will work to regulate the backpressure. You can experiment with different options available to you (heavier coin = more backpressure = higher output). The 12-10 and most capillary stoves do not appear to be pressurized to me.

5. To repeat! Thru-hikers (and early season hikers) need stoves that will work in freezing or near-freezing conditions, and western hikers need stoves that will work at altitude. I’ve read too many reports of hikers eating cold meals in these conditions (I would run out of food quickly if I couldn’t cook!). The Penny 2.0 stove, built to work with your system, can work well in these conditions. Though I haven’t tested all the other alcohol stoves out there, I don’t know of any other that works reasonably well across the spectrum I require.

FYI, my cooking typically consists (for dinners) of cooking by simmering my meals in a large pot, followed by boiling more water for coffee (or coca) and cleanup, and for brunch just boiling water. I’ve cooked eggs and pancakes on an MSR white gas stove in the past, and expect it would be doable on an alcohol stove, though I’ve not actually done so yet.

[BirdBrain]

Any energy that is expended on a stove to prime said stove is by inspection energy that is not directed towards its primary purpose. In seeking an efficient alcohol stove system, the question should always be what is my fuel heating? If the answer is anything but the bottom of the pot, every bit of that misdirected energy is again by inspection wasted. These thoughts should be self evident. There will always be wasted energy. The goal is to minimize that waste. If the stove is getting excessively hot, or worse, needs to be primed, that is an energy loss that can be minimized. If your wind screen is getting excessively hot, that is an energy loss that can be minimized. If hot gases are just pouring out an open gap between your pot and your wind screen, that is energy loss that can be minimized. These are simple and logical facts that should influence any alcohol stove system builder with any concern for efficiency.

For what it is worth, an eCHS works fine below freezing and does not require priming.

[Starchild]

...The 12-10 and most capillary stoves do not appear to be pressurized to me.

The 12-10 is center flame, so yes there is no pressure. The holes on the side are air intake.

[Another Kevin]

4. I have had excellent success with the Penny 2.0. Any coin or circular object that has a smooth outer rim to seal on the Coke can will work to regulate the backpressure. You can experiment with different options available to you (heavier coin = more backpressure = higher output). The 12-10 and most capillary stoves do not appear to be pressurized to me.

The reason you don't want to use a post-1982 penny is that they're made of zinc. You don't want zinc fumes about when you're cooking.

[rikkitikkitavi]

Solo stive sells a good alcohol burner stove. It's like 15.00. Very well designed and milled.

Just wondering if anyone has easily made an alcohol stove that is able to boil 500mL of water (2 cups) with under 20mL of methylated spirits,

in 5 min or under?

I was looking at the penny stove 2.0 but couldnt find much data on efficiency. And what I did find was wildly conflicting.
Also, it says an old penny is needed, would any coin that is the right size do? I live somewhere where we dont have pennies at all!

I was also looking at the supercat stove but from what I gather it is rather innefficient, although fast boiling.

If anyone has any designs to suggest that would fulfill the above requirements, or can provide data on any designs, then this would be immensely helpful. If a stove fulfilling the above requirements can be easily made, then I am definitely looking to switch to alcohol for some trips, but otherwise I'd stick with my canister stove, which can get me the water for a brew boiled in around 3min.

[zelph]

.

One of the most popular DIY stoves here on WB, Backpackinglight.com and Hammockforums.net is the Fancee Feest stove:

.

[Rocket Jones]

Amazon has an alcohol stove on sale tomorrow for Prime Members, starting at 1 PM. Here's the stove.

[zelph]

Here is the thread for DIY Fancee Feest:

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthre...ncyfeast-Stove

[Another Kevin]

[QUOTE=BirdBrain;1967246]Any energy that is expended on a stove to prime said stove is by inspection energy that is not directed towards its primary purpose. In seeking an efficient alcohol stove system, the question should always be what is my fuel heating? If the answer is anything but the bottom of the pot, every bit of that misdirected energy is again by inspection wasted. These thoughts should be self evident. There will always be wasted energy. The goal is to minimize that waste. If the stove is getting excessively hot, or worse, needs to be primed, that is an energy loss that can be minimized. If your wind screen is getting excessively hot, that is an energy loss that can be minimized. If hot gases are just pouring out an open gap between your pot and your wind screen, that is energy loss that can be minimized. These are simple and logical facts that should influence any alcohol stove system builder with any concern for efficiency./QUOTE]

A possible exception is if the priming flame heats the pot as well. You always have some of your heat going into vaporizing the alcohol. If the waste heat from that process also heats your pot, it's not obviously much less efficient.

I find that I need to prime the Penny Stove only when it's below freezing. A few drops of fuel are enough, and the pot can be on the stand while the stove is settling down to a steady burn. Overpriming is a worse issue. The stove runs in flamethrower mode once it catches until the priming fuel has burnt out. That's horribly inefficient.

[BirdBrain]

The portion of the priming flame that heats the stove is wasted energy. An eCHS directs very little energy back to itself. I would challenge any alcohol stove builder to hold their stove in their hand without any shielding and light it while I do the same. I can hold mine for several minutes. I understand we are talking tenths of milliliters. However, the subject at hand is efficiency. Priming and thermal feed back are just 2 of several issues where the eCHS is supererior. The location and accuracy of the directed flames are others. A cone and proper stove to pot gap are others. Weighing in at 7 grams is another advantage. Sorry, heat absorbed by the stove is robbed energy. We can debate how much. I don't see how it can be debated that it is lost energy.