South Kaibab and Bright Angel Trail

[BirdBrain]

I am planning another Arizona trip. It will be our 30th wedding anniversary. We loved Arizona. When we were there last time, we decided we had to come back some time and hike down the South Kaibab Trail and back up the Bright Angel with stops at Phantom Ranch and Indian Gardens. My wife is not an avid hiker. She has done most of Acadia with me. I have done Maine and NH on the AT and 42 of the 4000' hills along the way. I am having a hard time gauging how tough the Grand Canyon hike would be on my wife. I notice one comparison in the comments section on the following link. It is the 1st comment.

http://equipped.outdoors.org/2013/10...palachian.html

I plan on carrying most of the gear. I hike 5 to 10 days at a time in Maine and NH. I believe I will be fine lugging enough stuff for the 3 days for the 2 of us. I know I will need to lug a lot of water going down and the up to Indian Gardens. My only concern is how a novice hiker will do going up, especially the last leg from Indian Gardens to the south rim.

[Odd Man Out]

I've seen that statistic before about the AT and even did the calculation for comparing it to the Grand Canyon.

The SKT is 7.1 miles and 2480 ft down
The BAT is 9.9 miles and 2546 ft up
If we assume that the GC trails don't have enough up and down to throw off the calculations (i.e. they all down or all up), then it comes out to about 300 feet of elevation gain/loss per mile

For the AT number in the article (515,000 feet in 2175 miles), you get about 235 feet of elevation gain/loss per mile.

BUT I've seen numbers for the AT which leads me to believe that the 515,000 feet figure is actually 515,000 feet of gain and 515,000 feet of loss. So combining these (as I did for the GC trails), you actually get about 470 feet of gain/loss per mile for the AT.

So the Grand Canyon is literally "a walk in the park" ;-)

[BirdBrain]

Thank you OMO. After searching this site, I see that Shutterbug has quite a bit of experience. I PM'ed him. I hope to pick his brain. I am certain he has the answers to all my questions (including the ones I do not even know I should be asking).

[swjohnsey]

Something you need to consider is back country permits, difficult to get. I took my wife down the Kaibab and up the Bright Angel, not too bad. No water on the Kaibab but down hill. Plenty of water on the Bright Angel, no need to carry more than a quart. If you camp at Indian Gardens and get an early start you can be out before it gets hot.

[Ron]

I'm in Arizona this winter and I've hiked the Kaibab and Bright Angel a couple of times this year, both staying at Phantom Ranch and doing the full trip in one day. It's very doable for a conditioned hiker but is no "walk in the park". The way you are breaking it up will make it much more managable for your wife as long as you keep your pack weight down. The big factor is when you plan to hike it. If you are going in hot weather, especially summer, I would reconsider as it will become a difficult hike.

[Uriah]

I'm in Arizona this winter and I've hiked the Kaibab and Bright Angel a couple of times this year, both staying at Phantom Ranch and doing the full trip in one day. It's very doable for a conditioned hiker but is no "walk in the park". The way you are breaking it up will make it much more managable for your wife as long as you keep your pack weight down. The big factor is when you plan to hike it. If you are going in hot weather, especially summer, I would reconsider as it will become a difficult hike.

When hiking the Hayduke last year (Arches to Zion via the Grand Canyon), I decided I'd play some in the Grand Canyon, since I'd never been. I was fortunately fit, since I'd already had a long walk under my belt, despite not wearing one. As it was early June, I ended having to help a number of hikers who ran (walked) into trouble, overestimating their capacities. The canyon is littered with stories of those who think it's "a walk in the park," as the book Over the Edge: Death in Grand Canyon describes. But with all the right planning (fitness, hiking poles for the wife's long descent, the correct timing, permits secured well in advance [as they have to be for over-nighters], salts, calories, sunscreen, water, etc) it's not as brutal as it saounds. I enjoyed the experience immensely, especially since I walked hundreds of miles to the canyon, which allowed me both greater fitness and appreciation for it. It is a huge hole and I'm sure the BirdBrain will enjoy the trip, given (and taking) all the necessary precautions.

[Spirit Walker]

The hike is an easy one, but some have trouble with the fact that it is continuous down followed by continuous uphill. Time of year makes a huge difference. I did it as an overnight in October, with snow on top and 70 degrees at Phantom Ranch, and as a very long dayhike in April, carrying a lot of water and needing every drop. I've also been at the bottom of the canyon in May on a rafting trip when the temperature was 115. IOW, don't try it as a summer hike. If you have time to train a bit, it would make it easier for your wife. Just get out and walk before or after dinner every day from now until your trip.

You might also consider reserving a room at the lodge or in Tusayan (or a campsite at the campground) both before and after your hike. Before allows you to get an early start, before it gets hot. Afterwards allows you to collapse and eat and rest instead of having to drive two hours or more to Flagstaff.

[BirdBrain]

OMO's comments have been addressed by a few. I must come to his defence. I believe his characterization of the walk is influenced a bit by his knowledge of my hiking adventures. It is not uncommon for me to do 16,000' of elevation change over 15 miles carrying 6 days of food on my back. Maine and NH are full of such opportunities. I have no worries for my self. I have big concerns for my wife. The responses so far are helpful. Thank you. Keep them coming.

[tdoczi]

a non avid friend of mine who would probably die if she tried to hike most of acadia went down the south kaibab and then up the bright angel (all in one day) 2 days later without much issue, carrying her own stuff, which isnt much if youre staying at phantom ranch. id consider skipping indian gardens as i think the lighter load would make for a better time versus spacing the climb out.

also, i suspect your statement about hauling water down the south kaibab is based on the fact that there are no water sources on it. while thats true, its not a very long hike, not very strenuous going down and i think hauling an especially large amount of water is overkill unless it is super hot out. and again, carrying a load of camping gear versus not is a big difference. i'd descend to phantom carrying at most 40 ounces of water for myself, and only that much if it were mid summer, and wouldnt worry about it.

as for the difficulty, all the stats about elevation per mile and all that doesnt mean- the grand canyon is just plain easier than most parts of the AT that have any sort of elevation, as well as easier than most mountains in acadia.

[garlic08]

The SKT is 7.1 miles and 2480 ft down
The BAT is 9.9 miles and 2546 ft up

You might want to check your numbers. The South Rim is around 7200' and the river is around 2500', making the gross elevation difference more like 4,700', nearly doubling your slope calculations.

In any case, it's essentially a mile climb. It's hard to get that on a 4000' peak. I'm not denigrating the difficulty of those summits. A mile climb feels like a mile climb, no matter how good the trail.

The difficulty of the walking depends greatly on how much weight is carried. Many can do that hike easily in one day, some even do a Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim in one day (kinda crazy). One of the minor difficulties on the ascent is the pack animal trains and what they do to the trail. It is extremely well constructed and maintained, but it's hard to completely and constantly cover up the effects of hoofs. But there aren't any slippery roots and rocks like you see in New England. Plenty of steps, though, and they can take it out of you after a while, including on the descent. (My first descent with a pack surprised me, leaving me with sewing machine legs and numb shins.)

You didn't mention the season you're hiking. The presence of snow or ice at the Rim completely changes the difficulty of the trail. So does summer heat at the river.

[BirdBrain]

Likely going mid April.

[Uriah]

I have no worries for my self. I have big concerns for my wife. The responses so far are helpful. Thank you. Keep them coming.

Is hiking the Grand Canyon something she wants to do, or is she simply pleasing you by agreeing to it? Either way, if it's a go...

Encourage her to get as fit as she can beforehand.
Have her use hiking poles for the descent; it'll save her legs some abuse.
Carry everything of hers, especially the heavy stuff (water).
Make sure you start early, if heat's going to be an issue.
Let her set the pace (this seems to be difficult for most men, especially when others start passing them).
Keep hydrated and with more than just water (have some salts or salty snacks).

With an overnighter or two in the belly of the beast, the canyon should be quite manageable for her.

[BirdBrain]

She wants to do it. I let her set the pace every time we hike together. I carry all the gear every time we hike together.

I agree. Most men are idiots (my words) when they hike with women of differing abilities. I have had words with more than one "man" that did not think their female friend was trying hard enough.

[Miner]

How hard it is depends on how hot it is. Some of the canyons on the BA don't get much air flow and get very hot. I remember 105F before 11am one memorial weekend. Don't do it in the hotter months.

SK is steep in places and tiring/hard on the knees. My knees were killing me hiking down when I was on a trip there back in college years ago before the days of trekking poles. The 40+ pound pack probably didn't help. BA is better graded.

[Cookerhiker]

Likely going mid April.

Mid-April of this year? Do you have a reservation at Phantom Ranch? If not, you'll only get in by luck. I'd imagine Indian Garden is also full.

[BirdBrain]

Mid-April of this year? Do you have a reservation at Phantom Ranch? If not, you'll only get in by luck. I'd imagine Indian Garden is also full.

Next year.

[GoldenBear]

I've hiked over half the A.T.
I've hiked up Mount Whitney and back down.
I've hiked down to Phantom Ranch, and then back out, on consecutive days -- in May. With my wife. Who doesn't hike. And who got sick when she did so.

Each of these hikes are difficult, but they are difficult in DIFFERENT ways.
That a person can do one is not necessarily proof of being able to do the other.

The big difference between the Grand Canyon and the A.T. is that the former is HOT and DRY.
If the A.T. is incessantly boring because you're in a canopy of trees, then the GC will make you wish you had trees blocking your view every minute.

I honestly believe that your wife can handle this *IF* she is willing to prepare for this hike by walking up and down steps, every day, until you can do so for over an hour non-stop without getting sore or tired. This will generally take a few weeks of conditioning, but it can be done and MUST be done.

If she's willing to do this training, and you're willing to carry the (fairly minimal) camping supplies needed for two overnights, then I think you'll be fine.
My wife has long given me permission to say that, if she can do this hike, then ANYONE can do this hike.
But she WAS willing to get her legs in shape for this.


I should add that you should carry all the water you can handle, particularly when going down the Kaibab. The problem with the dry heat of Arizona is that you won't realize how much fluid and salts you're losing until it begins to be too late. So you should be drinking all the time. Stop to take a photo, take a drink; stop to catch your breath, take a drink; stop to get out of the way of the mules, take a drink -- repeat.


One thing to also note is that you will have to get overnight permits for this hike -- and these generally are gone MONTHS in advance.

[colorado_rob]

I've hike both the Kaibab and the BA trail roughly 20 times in the last 12-13 years. The BA vs. Kaibab trail conditions have varied a lot over the years. Right now (at least, last year in April) the Kaibab is in better shape IMHO, but of course it still makes sense to go up the BA because of the water stops. But the good news is the Kaibab is in decent condition for her descent. Sure, it is rutted due to those damn mules, but it has been much worse.

We're going weekend after next (April 10/11/12) and I'll report back on trail conditions. As has already been said, your chance of snagging a camping permit at either BA CG (in Phantom) or Indian Gardens is slim, though not zero if you check for a mid-week date.

You don't say how fit or unfit your wife is; IMHO hiking experience is not really that important on such a decent trail especially with you being her "mule" and her carrying very little. Even unfit, she should be able to make it down the Kaibab trail to phantom/BA CG in a few hours, call it 4 hours. I honestly think if she is in any way fit she can make it back up in a day fairly easily, so long as you take it really slow. If you can indeed stay at Indian gardens, that's great of course.

I also feel, again if reasonably fit, she could make it down the Kaibab in four hours or so, take a nice long rest and make it back to Indian gardens if another 4-5 slow, easy hours; that is if Indian gardens is the only camp permit you could get.

All just my opinions of course after having hiked the GC so many, many times in recent years.

[colorado_rob]

Oh, next year! Great, you're golden, get your permits and enjoy. Go no later than early/mid April and really, the heat isn't that bad at all. Avoid climbing from Phantom to Indian Gardens in mid day, just leave nice and early. Indian gardens is nicely shaded and a great place to hang out the rest of the day after hiking up to it in the morning. In early-mid April, the hottest I've seen Phantom at mid-day is in the low-mid 90's, usually below 90, cooler than that mornings and evenings. And it's a "dry heat", really quite nice this time of year actually. Cool off in the CO river, but be ready to really cool off as the water is mid-40's year 'round. When you leave Phantom heading up to Indian Gardens, after about a mile of level hiking along the river (after crossing the silver bridge), there is a nice little beach area and calm river waters just before heading up the step part to IG.

I'll shut up now... getting too excited about next week...

[BirdBrain]

No! Don't shut up. I am getting great advice. As far as what shape my wife is in, all I will say is I like her shape. She is less overweight than I am. She is younger than me too. My mother didn't raise any fools.