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  1. #1
    AT 2012
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    Default type II snow melting

    mostly for your general amusement, I suppose, but wouldn't mind some advice.

    "spring" camping on Blackhead Mountain in the Catskills last weekend, I knew I would have to melt snow as my only water source -- a first for me -- since I have always been able to find flowing water before. With three feet of snow and zero degree temps the logistics almost did me in. First problem: all advice is to put your stove on some raft-like surface. well, hard to find one in that much snow, so I did manage to use some bark and aluminum foil... but my wood-burning stove just ate through that real fast. I can't remember how many last minute melt-shifts dumped my hard-melted water supply into the snow. After some successful snow melting for drinking water, I moved on to boiling water for a lusted-for drink of hot chocolate and cooking water. I thought I'd try to just use a camp fire -- so I put down a base of rotten logs I managed to break off above snow level, and built a small fire. Again, after several shifting log/snow drop generated almost boiling water spills, I managed to get some boiling water. Punch line: elapsed time: roughly four hours. ...mostly, feelings of amusement/entertainment/educational experience most of the time. So, for serious winter camping (read snow melting in cold temps) the preferred stove is: ??? and should I really have brought a snow shovel??? what is the UL solution here??? and laugh away, my friends.
    Lazarus

  2. #2

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    Well you could rig up a hanging system like some mountaineers use. I know others who carry a license plate for a stove base.

  3. #3

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    My canister stove I just use on top of a snowshoe but that craps out in really cold weather. My Whisperlite came with a metal disc to use under it but I prefer to use my shovel to dig out a solid spot for it. Being below the surface of the snow creates a bit of a wind break too.

  4. #4
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    I carry this Black Diamond shovel (http://www.rei.com/product/745471/bl...-7-snow-shovel) , it has cut outs that allow it to strap easily to my pack. And my whisperlite worked out fine for my hot coffee. This was here in CT, but temps were high 20, low of 6 so it felt like the upstate NY I remember from my youth

    Same campout I tried a Windpro II in inverted mode and it performed poorly. Very disappointed.

  5. #5
    Garlic
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    I use an alcohol stove in snow and it works very well for melting snow. It takes long enough to prime that the cooler flame melts powder snow slowly, and there's not so much danger of burning the pot with a hot flame.

    I carry an old cookie sheet with one end cut off for a stove base and emergency shovel, and it packs very easily. It's UL on the budget, at least. When I used to carry a white gas stove, I used a mouse pad as a base but that's probably not such a good idea for alcohol or a wood burner.
    "Throw a loaf of bread and a pound of tea in an old sack and jump over the back fence." John Muir on expedition planning

  6. #6
    AT 2012
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by garlic08 View Post
    I use an alcohol stove in snow and it works very well for melting snow. It takes long enough to prime that the cooler flame melts powder snow slowly, and there's not so much danger of burning the pot with a hot flame.

    I carry an old cookie sheet with one end cut off for a stove base and emergency shovel, and it packs very easily. It's UL on the budget, at least. When I used to carry a white gas stove, I used a mouse pad as a base but that's probably not such a good idea for alcohol or a wood burner.
    wow -- i had always thought that it would take too much fuel to use an alcohol stove to melt snow. i have lots of alcohol stove experience, but never had even considered it for snow melting. will have to try it now... and i love the cookie sheet idea. hello and thanks!
    Lazarus

  7. #7
    AT 2012
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    anybody ever use this? http://www.snowclaw.com my guess is that Garlic's cookie tray idea is better -- probably as light, and works for a stove platform.
    Lazarus

  8. #8
    Garlic
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1azarus View Post
    wow -- i had always thought that it would take too much fuel to use an alcohol stove to melt snow. i have lots of alcohol stove experience, but never had even considered it for snow melting. will have to try it now... and i love the cookie sheet idea. hello and thanks!
    Good point about fuel use. Alcohol is not good for long term or for large groups. For the occasional solo overnighter (virtually all my snow camping experience), it works surprisingly well at melting snow, even in harsh conditions--powder snow, -20F, 11,000' elevation.

    Looking at the Snow Claw, I'm tempted to get out my snips, cut handles in my cookie sheet, and line the cut edges with duct tape. I've never used it to dig, but that would make it easier and that's one of the reasons I carry it--just in case.

  9. #9

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    How do you get the alcohol to light in cold weather? I like to use alcohol to prime my Whisperlite since it burns cleaner than stove fuel but in the cold it is hard to get it to light and down below zero I pretty much can't get it to light at all.

  10. #10
    Garlic
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStranger View Post
    How do you get the alcohol to light in cold weather? I like to use alcohol to prime my Whisperlite since it burns cleaner than stove fuel but in the cold it is hard to get it to light and down below zero I pretty much can't get it to light at all.
    Denatured alcohol has always lit with a butane lighter for me down to -20F. Do you use denatured? It has a small amount of gasoline in it--maybe that makes a difference.

  11. #11
    Clueless Weekender
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    Hi Lazarus! I knew you'd be back to Blackhead at some point! Did you do the whole Escarpment, or the Thomas Cole-Black Dome-Blackhead-Acra Point-Burnt Knob-Windham High Peak loop?

    There's a spring below the col between Black Dome and Blackhead, just off the red-blazed trail, that runs all winter - or at least, I've never seen it completely frozen. I've had to use my ice axe to break through to running water, but it's there. The last time I was up there, someone else had already dug it out. Here is one of my hiking partners in about a three-foot snowpack, going for water.




    If I don't have a snow shovel, I level a stove platform with my ice axe. If you were doing Blackhead in snow without an ice axe, how did you control your glissade down? Don't tell me you walked down! That's missing all the fun!

    What were the snow conditions like on the ridge? When I was up there in December, the exposed rock was pretty icy, with about a four-foot snowpack in the more sheltered parts. Those who didn't have ascent snowshoes were switching to crampons for the ridge between Blackhead and Black Dome. My Lightnings just ate it up, so I didn't switch to crampons until we were heading back down and my snowshoes threatened to turn into skis without good edges.



    If I'm expecting conditions like what you were reporting, I bring a foot-square piece of closed-cell foam covered in tinfoil. That's enough insulation to keep my stove from melting through.

    A naphtha stove like a Whisperlite is what you really need for an extended winter trip. For an overnighter, you can get away with an alcohol stove, but expect to burn a lot of fuel. That's what I do. In order to get it to light, I usually stick a wisp of toilet paper in the alcohol in the priming dish, and light that. I've done that down to the negative-teens.

    Hey Laz, once the weather is a trifle better, are you up for trying a Catskill bushwhack? Something like Doubletop, Big Indian and Fir should be leisurely mileage for you. I'll lead, and watch as you teeter on the edge of panic with nary a blaze in sight for the whole weekend. Elf and I did a three-peak whack last summer and had a blast.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  12. #12
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    hello AK... I did the Thomas Cole-Black Dome-Blackhead-Acra Point-Burnt Knob-Windham High Peak loop, and am a real fan of that trip. Relatively short and sweet -- not an over reach. I had left a long afternoon, one day, and a morning to complete the loop (the entire trip was planned around having breakfast at the Albergo Allegria Inn the first and last morning.) Turns out the walking was easy enough so that I only spent one night out -- just to the north of Blackhead.

    so, now that I'm getting in touch with my inner wimp, I figure I will never plan a serious winter hike that lasts more than two nights -- so the alcohol burning makes sense, and I will do that in the future. That is technology that I can relate to.

    I figure next time i'll bring a Garlic Cookie Tray mod. Ah, the image of Garlic Cookies will stay with me for a while, I'm afraid.

    I've got two pair of snow shoes already -- a MSR EVO and Northern Lites... neither are particularly aggressive ascent shoes. I tend to bring the Northern Lites, and given how much the crust had set up, I only needed to wear my northern lites when poking around for firewood. Otherwise, it was a microspike trip. Rarely, a crust fail would drop me in the snow up to my crotch -- but generally it was an amazing experience -- the landscape looked like a windswept winter wonderland with crazy deep snow, but you could just walk on the surface of it all.

    footprints.jpg



    The microspikes only occasionally scared the daylights out of me. On my climb up Blackhead I followed someone's butt print path, all the time worrying about the descent on the other side. On the trip down I was really careful, but at one point slipped onto my butt and got to experience that glissade thrill involuntarily. Luckily I did not experience the emergency self arrest tree collision!

    You could lure me back for off trail stuff... I need to work on those skills for sure. I want to hike the Trans Adirondack route and the cohos trails before I die. No tree blazes? I thought they were naturally occurring. Kind of like a random pattern of nature.
    Lazarus

  13. #13
    Clueless Weekender
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1azarus View Post
    The microspikes only occasionally scared the daylights out of me. On my climb up Blackhead I followed someone's butt print path, all the time worrying about the descent on the other side. On the trip down I was really careful, but at one point slipped onto my butt and got to experience that glissade thrill involuntarily. Luckily I did not experience the emergency self arrest tree collision!
    You're a braver man than I am! Being on the north face of Blackhead or the east face of Black Dome without crampons and ice axe in heavy crusted snowpack would scare the daylights out of me. There's the one switchback with the view of Albany on Blackhead, and the trail on Black Dome has the rock with the views of both the Batavia Kill valley and the southern Catskills across Capra Lake. An uncontrolled slide in either of those spots could put you on a LONG drop. (I have slid down the north side of Blackhead - WITH an ice axe, but arrested for the switchback and the spot with the wooden rungs.)

    Then again, I'm sure you're better on snow than I am. You're a former professional skier, while I've always been nervous when snow and vertical combine. And I know that you can walk lightly over snow where I wallow in postholes. I've seen you in action.

    That hike might actually be easier in good snow conditions than it is in summer. Both the Black Dome Range and Escarpment trails are really, really rocky, and there's a fair amount of hands-on-rock scrambling from the top of Thomas Cole all the way over to the Batavia Kill turnoff.

    If you haven't done it yet, another terrific loop starts from the Giant Ledge parking area. Hike up to Giant Ledge (and possibly the Panther summit, there are some nice views up there too) on the first day, then down to Woodland Valley and up to the Terrace Mountain turnoff. Refill at the spring just below the turnoff and find a spot to pitch somewhere on the way to Terrace Mountain shelter. Next day, do Wittenberg, Cornell and Slide - be prepared for some tough scrambles - come down on the old carriage road through Winnisook Club - ignoring their posters, because the old road is still a public highway - and make the short walk on CR47 back to your car.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  14. #14
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Laz-
    I know you're just an architect and not used to building things but...

    Fer a fire over snow, think floor joists over steel.

    Get you two good base logs to serve as the steel, then lay your smaller green wood across the top like floor joists.
    The green wood right on the snow will generate enough heat to settle as you noted, putting your platform up will let cold air flow under your fire and give you enough separation between your fire and the ground that things will work out decent enough for you without flooding the basement.

    This is a temporary platform to help you boil with your little wood stove.
    As an alternative- if no base logs is available- you can trench the snow and put your green wood over the trench.

    If you want a bit more outta the fire- you need to refer to the S sheets in your plan.
    If you sink some columns under your steel and reach a firm footing then the odds of your platform sinking are pretty low. If you are building a small enough fire four columns under two pieces of steel might be enough to burn right on the steel if it's of a decent size.

    Older fellas like Ol' Man Willy may also tell you they prefer to carry a pot with a bail (or holes to tie a string for UL folk) in winter time so that they can sink a few lally columns down to bedrock and put a support stick across em. Thataway you can hang your pot over your fire and not put as much effort into the structure.

    In the event of an earthquake you'll avoid flooding the basement and putting out the pilot light in the hot water heater.

    Course in my opinion- seems a damn waste to build a fire and not sit by it a piece- in which case you're pretty much relegated to digging down and settling in for a bit.

    Now all that said-
    A nice inverted canister stove can be damn handy.

  15. #15
    AT 2012
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    AK and AB... thanks for your advice and comments... I think the addition of a bail on my pot would have made a huge difference, and I will either bring a different pot on future deep snow trips, or modify my present one by adding one. hmmm. come to think of it, I do have a fosters beer can with a wire bail -- that'll do.

    mostly, i think it is all about attitude -- and I feel like I come up short there too often. really reveling in the adventure -- really enjoying the moment, rather than gritting one's teeth and feeling heroic for toughing "it" out, would make a world of difference in my creative solution decision making ability. AB, you have refined the sit by the fire a piece to an art. Hats off on a warm sunny day, my friend.
    Lazarus

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