Permits - Original thread closed under false pretenses

[Sly]

This was the original post in the the thread that was reported by a member (I don't go around looking to close threads, and rarely do, even if reported) and closed by me.

I was just wondering, if anyone felt free to share, how many have thru hiked without obtaining a "permit" through the park areas? Follow up question is, if so, what were your experiences in doing so?

You then went on to say

The question of why not can get wallowed into a long debate. That's why I just stuck to others experiences here. As far as easy to get maybe I am missing something. I planned my thru hike a few years back and couldn't go. This year I am looking up that it is supposed to be done online or by phone. Well that works great if you use a credit card. I don't. Don't believe in the credit system of everyday finance. Which again is not a topic I am attempting to debate. If you can still pay as you enter then yeah I agree it would be easier to get the permit.

It seemed to be you were trying to duck the permit process for thru-hikers without paying, which would be illegal. I suppose you could have asked if there was a legal way to gt through the park without paying...

I pointed out how, as someone that doesn't use a credit card, could easily pay for and get a permit. That may have to do.

[Slo-go'en]

Oh, but we like feeding trolls.

In the original thread the OP wanted to know if anyone thru hiked the park without a permit because he didn't have a credit card to pay for the permit. I can't find all the payment options available without filling out the permit application form, but I remember there were a number of options.

Probably the easiest is a prepaid card if you don't have a credit card. But I can't imagine anyone in this day and age attempting a thru hike without some kind of plastic money. You should at least have a debit or ATM card.

[TNhiker]

in the other thread, the OP stated that they didnt want a credit card because of the fees that came with it, which lead to wonder if the cost of the fees exceed the cost of the ticket for being without a permit.......


and, fwiw, 15 years of backpacking in the smokies----believe it was twice that i was asked for permit.....one time was with a large group, the other time was right when i was starting out......


but, on a day hike many a year ago, doing an offtrail route-----i was shook down by rangers.......i consented the search (although next time i wont) for my day pack after i describe the route i had taken.........

they were seeing if i was poaching ginseng or any other plant material........

and i was clean, so i wasnt worried........

[rocketsocks]

This was the original post in the the thread that was reported by a member (I don't go around looking to close threads, and rarely do, even if reported) and closed by me.



You then went on to say



It seemed to be you were trying to duck the permit process for thru-hikers without paying, which would be illegal. I suppose you could have asked if there was a legal way to gt through the park without paying...

I pointed out how, as someone that doesn't use a credit card, could easily pay for and get a permit. That may have to do.

...that's the way it reads to me.

[Starchild]

Just to point out, in the Smokies a permit is needed to overnight in a shelter. I met some who traveled by night and sheltered by day to avoid this permit system.

[mtntopper]

I remember when the gov. shut down awhile back and the National Parks were closed. People were posting how they were going to hike anyway. This would have been illegal. They were discussing illegal activity. White blaze did not close all of those threads.

[Speakeasy TN]

Exactly. And hiking without a permit is not illegal Speakeasy TN.

But THRU hiking is and that is what you asked about.....

[rocketsocks]

I remember when the gov. shut down awhile back and the National Parks were closed. People were posting how they were going to hike anyway. This would have been illegal. They were discussing illegal activity. White blaze did not close all of those threads.

Hey, when the government shuts down, all bets are OFF.

[MuddyWaters]

Prepaid visa debit is about $5.95 . A few (vanilla at walgreens) i recall come with PIN so you can get cash from them too, max $500 value on the card.

[Malto]

Hiking with overnight gear without a permit..is illegal.
So is having fishing gear in a boat, without a fishing license.

Don't buy this at all. On long day hikes I usually take full gear for exactly the reason discussing on the thread about hiker death in the Whites. I have also done a two very long day hikes in the Smokies, full gear. I didn't even give it half a thought nor would I again.

not to split hairs but it actually wouldn't be impossible to hike GSMNP without a permit. Start at Fontana and hike to Newfound Gap. Head to town. Next day return to trail and hike down to Davenport. It's a long, hard 40 mile day but some could do it. (Even easier would be to split at Clingmans. That's only 32, doable for a few more.)

on the subject of "day hiking" the entire GSMNP segment. Didn't Squeaky do that on one of his thru hikes?

[CalebJ]

Certainly it's been trail run in <24 hours multiple times. IIRC, the record is below 15.

[mtntopper]

Hiking with overnight gear without a permit..is illegal.
So is having fishing gear in a boat, without a fishing license.

Me either. I don't buy this at all. I have had experiences with both.Nope not so.

[Slo-go'en]

Hiking with overnight gear might not be illegal, but it is suspicious. Now if your in a shelter and that overnight gear is no longer in the pack, then you'd better have a permit. Chances are good you'll not run into a Ranger (but maybe a ridge runner), but if that shelter is full of people with permits and there is no space for you or you took someones space who shows up late and then they complain, you might be meet by a Ranger down the trail.

[Malto]

Hiking with overnight gear might not be illegal, but it is suspicious. Now if your in a shelter and that overnight gear is no longer in the pack, then you'd better have a permit. Chances are good you'll not run into a Ranger (but maybe a ridge runner), but if that shelter is full of people with permits and there is no space for you or you took someones space who shows up late and then they complain, you might be meet by a Ranger down the trail.

Ranger will know real quick if you are 20 miles from a trailhead head at 3:00 whether you are truly a "day hiker." If you "day hiking" and end up in a shelter then you better be injured or other emergency.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Just to point out, in the Smokies a permit is needed to overnight in a shelter. I met some who traveled by night and sheltered by day to avoid this permit system.

Not 100% sure if the rangers would buy that argument, but I think that is absolutely brilliant!

[twilight]

Am I missing the point here? What's the big deal if a ranger asks if you have a permit or not?

Twilight

[Starchild]

Not 100% sure if the rangers would buy that argument, but I think that is absolutely brilliant!

As a Ridgerunner for the GSMNP I was advised this was indeed the case. With that said I had no authority to enforce anything. Rangers may or may not have a shoot first and ask questions later attitude. However with that said those rangers who I met (and heard on the radio) while working there were not of that type, and usually very understanding. What I did take away is the biggest offense you can commit in GSMNP is improper food storage, they care very much about their bears.

[4eyedbuzzard]

True MuddyWaters, just saying the permit they are asking for is a camping permit, which is illegal for them to require if you want to talk illegality. We have the right to travel. If I am not camping I am not even breaking their unconstitutional rules they have made up therefore even in their world I am not committing a crime and am protected by the 4th amendment. Wow. apparently questioning the governments abuse of our civil rights is not accepted here. Amazing.

Here's your problem njgramm: The required permit is a "Backcountry Permit", issued by NPS/GSMNP either under an AT thru-hiker version, or a general version, with slightly different restrictions. The purpose is to manage impact on the trail and park lands so that as many people as reasonably possible can enjoy them. NPS is empowered by Congress to make rules and regulations, including individual park regulations under the Park Superintendent. If a ranger who is sworn to uphold the law sees someone hiking along the AT in GSMNP with a pack filled with hiking/camping gear, then they may lawfully demand to have the hiker produce the required permit, because the intent is apparent per se to a reasonable person. The person's right to travel is not being restricted - there are many other routes to travel to a destination that do not pass through the park's backcountry, and the AT is not intended as a means of travel, of routinely getting from one place to another.

You and I and many others have lots of opinions on the intent and meaning of the Constitution and the Amendments, what laws are within that spirit and what ones are not. But only nine of those opinions matter - and yours and mine aren't one of those. You speak of "their world". Well, like it or not, the real world is governed under the rules made in "their world". You can waste a lot of time and energy on semantics, or get on with hiking. Get a prepaid card as suggested if you wish to remain as anonymous as possible. And note that things like "closed under false pretenses" are a pretty frivolous complaint on a private website

[2015 Lady Thru-Hiker]

Hiking with overnight gear without a permit..is illegal.
So is having fishing gear in a boat, without a fishing license.

Not to stir the pot but I have hiked numerous times with my fully loaded backpack with no intentions of camping. Simply doing it for training purposes. So it would be illegal if I were to do that in the GSMNP?? Even though I never pitch my tent or set up camp??

Never mind. Just saw Malto's response

[4eyedbuzzard]

Not to stir the pot but I have hiked numerous times with my fully loaded backpack with no intentions of camping. Simply doing it for training purposes. So it would be illegal if I were to do that in the GSMNP?? Even though I never pitch my tent or set up camp??

A good point, and I've done the same, even setting up camp midday just to try out gear like tarps and such, and then breaking camp and hiking out the same day. I think if you explain that to a ranger - what your intent is, where you are hiking, where your vehicle or lower campsite is, etc., you would probably be fine. They are generally pretty friendly, and like most of us doing our jobs, they aren't looking to create problems (and work) where none exist. But if you start off by questioning their legal authority to see your permit, and tell them that they are violating your 4th amendment rights, I think you are probably asking for an unpleasant encounter. The fishing thing is quite different most places in many ways, as there are laws specifically worded that when on or at a body of water possession of gear itself is evidence of intent to fish. And, as is usual, ignorance of the law is not a defense.